Sunday, June 11, 2006
50 liberal country songs
Recently, John J. Miller of the National Review wrote an article: Rockin the Right, The 50 Greatest Conservative Rock Songs, in which he interpreted iconic rock songs as expressions of certain conservative values. Subsequently, he published a follow-up containing an additional 50, though it seemed to some particularly on the left that he was starting to stretch the conservative theme a bit. Even in the first 50, while "Won't Get Fooled Again" and "Sweet Home Alabama" are indisputably "conservative," the inclusions of songs like "Wouldn't it be Nice" are questionable. In fact, the whole exercise prompted some rather predictable responses as Miller notes in his encore article, as well as some more engaging responses including an hilarious satire (what makes the satire even more amusing than face value is that there is a little bit of overlap between the satirical list and Miller's follow-up 50).
So I wrote to Miller suggesting that in the interest of turnabout-as-fair-play somebody should publish a list of liberal country songs. He responded by encouraging me to come up with a list, and promising to link to it (which means we may be flooded with National Review reader hits over the next few days - should be fun). The problem is, I know nothing about country music. About 4 or 5 obvious examples popped into my head and I put the question to friends online and off. With help from a number of people I've put together the following list trying to stick to a few rules.
First, I wanted to avoid anything considered "alternative country" for the sake of argument. Miller didn't go to Christian Rock for his choices. Secondly, I wanted to avoid going too often to the well of artists like Dixie Chicks, Stever Earle, or the "Outlaws" such as Waylon Jennings, Willie Nelson, etc. I lean on them for a few songs, particularly those that did get a great deal of play on country music stations. But Miller didn't lean too heavily on artists like Ted Nugent. Third, I wanted to stick to as "pure" country as possible. No Woody Guthrie, or other classical folk music. No country rock like CCR.
Since I am clueless the difference is between "insider" and "outsider" country, I depended on others to define it for me. I ended up leaving out certain borderline artists to protect the argument, examples being kd Lang, John Melencamp, and Iris Dement.
I'm certain that some of my choices will be questioned in terms of both their place in country, as well as "liberal." Since Miller included everything pertaining to marriage or religion as "conservative," I feel comfortable with my choice to include as "liberal" any song that deals with the difficulties of underpaid working class life (it is very apparent that country addresses what the left views as "class issues" much more frequently than rock), even if the song isn't overtly political. I'll probably catch the most grief for including Merle Haggard's "Oakie from Muskogee," written as a joke with pretty much everyone across the political continuum missing the irony.
Lastly, while searching for liberal country songs I came across a book about the political divide in country music entitled Rednecks and Bluenecks. Looks interesting.
Without further ado, the list. I have a few back-up songs in the wings in case somebody convinces me any of these songs don't belong. I expect that country buffs will have plenty of additions that make better choices as well. I'll be happy to post them in follow-up.
Thanx in particular to John Rogers and nolo for help.
1. Man in Black - Johnny Cash - A liberal manifesto, laced with light irony
2. The Pill - Loretta Lynn - about the joys of sexual liberation
3. 9 to 5 - Dolly Parton - about class struggle in the workplace
4. We Shall be Free - Garth Brooks - about equality and diversity
5. Harper Valley PTA - Jeannie Riley (and others) - ballad about small town sexual hypocrisy
6. Take this Job and Shove It - Johnny Paycheck - another class struggle tune
7. Devil's Right Hand - Steve Earle - Anti-gun.
8. Sixteen Tons - Tennessee Earnest Ford - borderline as a "classic folk song." When does a song officially become a folk song anyway?
9. Rainbow Stew - Merle Haggard - lyrics a bit vague, but conjures up liberal imagery
10. Trouble in the Fields - Nancy Griffith - About the near extinction of the family farmer
11. Abraham, Martin, and John (It's a Hard Life) - Emmy Lou Harris - Lamentation about the harsher aspects of American life
12. They Ain't Makin Jews like Jesus Anymore - Kinky Friedman - about
intolerance
13. San Quentin - Johnny Cash - an anti "law and order"approach song
14. America - Waylon Jennings - about diversity, anti-war
15. Heartland - Willie Nelson - about foreclosures and the death of the American dream for some
16. Jesus, the Missing Years - John Prine - irreverent with counter-cultural themes
17. Okie from Muskogee - Merle Haggard - Few people on either side of the political spectrum seem to realize this was satire.
18. Conversations with the Devil - Ray Wylie Hubbard - sort of a modern liberal version of Dante's Inferno
19. Travelin' Soldier - Dixie Chicks - anti-war
20. 40 hour week - Alabama - recognition of working class contributions
21. My Uncle - Flying Burrito Brothers - Song of empathy for Vietnam war draft dodgers
22. Coal Miner's Daughter - Loretta Lynn - Underpaid working class heroism
23. Ballad for a soldier - Leon Russell, aka Hank Wilson - antiwar
24. Fishing - Richard Shindell - Solidarity values of an illegal immigrant
25. I Washed my Face in the Morning Dew - Tom T. Hall - about the stigmatization of poverty
26. One Hundred Children - Tom T. Hall - liberal message for children
27. Aragon Mill - Dry Branch Fire Squads - all about the consequences of the "restructuring" of the American economy
28. Workin Band - Nitty Gritty Dirt Band - about unemployment
29. Right or Left at Oak Street - Roy Clark - presents a less than ideal image of suburban living and the purported American dream
30. Two Story House - Tammy Wynette - about suburban airs and hypocrisy, covered up by calculated appearances of affluence.
31. Church - Lyle Lovett - irreverent, or to quote an old leftist friend - "transgressive and counter-hegemonic"
32. Devil Take the Farmer - Dry Branch Fire Squads - about the death of the family farm
33. Blame it on the Stones - Kris Kristofferson - all about middle class provincialism
34. Skip a Rope - Henson Cargill - kind of a country version of Give Peace a Chance applied to sexual and racial relationships
35. That's the News - Merle Haggard - probably the only song of any genre to address the lame media coverage of the Iraq war
36. A Week in Country Jail - Tom T. Hall - about the pettiness of small town law enforcement
37. Common Man - John Conlee - Working class pride expressed as independence of wealth
38. Kids of the Baby Boom - The Bellamy Brothers - reflection on the banalities of American culture in post-WWII affluence.
39. Mississipi on my Mind - Jesse Winchester written, Jerry Jeff Walker performance - Winchester's personal reflections on Mississippi from his haven in Canada while evading the Vietnam war.
40. Hank Williams Said It Best - Guy Clark - anthem for tolerance and acknowledgment of moral nuance - often referred to by the opposition as "moral relativity."
41. Billy B. Damned - Billy Joe Shaver - ironic comment on law and power
42. Don't you think this outlaw bit's done got out of hand?- Waylon Jennings - Jennings comments on overzealous literacy challenged decency brigades who don't get irony.
43. Lights went out in Georgia - Reba McEntire - About southern justice.
44. Peace on Earth - Willie Nelson - Duh.
45. High Cotton - Alabama - another class piece
46. Why can't we all just get a long neck? - Hank Williams - His version of Imagine
47. White House Blues - Vassar Clements - a very political anthem
48. Saginaw, Michigan - Lefty Frizzell - Ballad of a working class hero using his noggin to overcome class bias
49. Copperhead Road - Steve Earle - About post traumatic stress syndrome due to the Vietnam war (Left out Ellis Unit One because a friend told me the song was written after Earle's "fall from grace" in Nashville, and because it was incorporated into the soundtrack for Dead Man Walking).
50. Hobo's Meditation - Dolly Parton - sympathy for the homeless, whether "truly needy" or not.
Update: I posted a link on Daily Kos, and I'm getting more proposals for the list. Again, I'm not familiar with the genre, but I'll consult my "experts" to see if I should expand the list.
Follow-up post with commentary re Pete Townsend, Merle Haggerd, and others.
So I wrote to Miller suggesting that in the interest of turnabout-as-fair-play somebody should publish a list of liberal country songs. He responded by encouraging me to come up with a list, and promising to link to it (which means we may be flooded with National Review reader hits over the next few days - should be fun). The problem is, I know nothing about country music. About 4 or 5 obvious examples popped into my head and I put the question to friends online and off. With help from a number of people I've put together the following list trying to stick to a few rules.
First, I wanted to avoid anything considered "alternative country" for the sake of argument. Miller didn't go to Christian Rock for his choices. Secondly, I wanted to avoid going too often to the well of artists like Dixie Chicks, Stever Earle, or the "Outlaws" such as Waylon Jennings, Willie Nelson, etc. I lean on them for a few songs, particularly those that did get a great deal of play on country music stations. But Miller didn't lean too heavily on artists like Ted Nugent. Third, I wanted to stick to as "pure" country as possible. No Woody Guthrie, or other classical folk music. No country rock like CCR.
Since I am clueless the difference is between "insider" and "outsider" country, I depended on others to define it for me. I ended up leaving out certain borderline artists to protect the argument, examples being kd Lang, John Melencamp, and Iris Dement.
I'm certain that some of my choices will be questioned in terms of both their place in country, as well as "liberal." Since Miller included everything pertaining to marriage or religion as "conservative," I feel comfortable with my choice to include as "liberal" any song that deals with the difficulties of underpaid working class life (it is very apparent that country addresses what the left views as "class issues" much more frequently than rock), even if the song isn't overtly political. I'll probably catch the most grief for including Merle Haggard's "Oakie from Muskogee," written as a joke with pretty much everyone across the political continuum missing the irony.
Lastly, while searching for liberal country songs I came across a book about the political divide in country music entitled Rednecks and Bluenecks. Looks interesting.
Without further ado, the list. I have a few back-up songs in the wings in case somebody convinces me any of these songs don't belong. I expect that country buffs will have plenty of additions that make better choices as well. I'll be happy to post them in follow-up.
Thanx in particular to John Rogers and nolo for help.
1. Man in Black - Johnny Cash - A liberal manifesto, laced with light irony
2. The Pill - Loretta Lynn - about the joys of sexual liberation
3. 9 to 5 - Dolly Parton - about class struggle in the workplace
4. We Shall be Free - Garth Brooks - about equality and diversity
5. Harper Valley PTA - Jeannie Riley (and others) - ballad about small town sexual hypocrisy
6. Take this Job and Shove It - Johnny Paycheck - another class struggle tune
7. Devil's Right Hand - Steve Earle - Anti-gun.
8. Sixteen Tons - Tennessee Earnest Ford - borderline as a "classic folk song." When does a song officially become a folk song anyway?
9. Rainbow Stew - Merle Haggard - lyrics a bit vague, but conjures up liberal imagery
10. Trouble in the Fields - Nancy Griffith - About the near extinction of the family farmer
11. Abraham, Martin, and John (It's a Hard Life) - Emmy Lou Harris - Lamentation about the harsher aspects of American life
12. They Ain't Makin Jews like Jesus Anymore - Kinky Friedman - about
intolerance
13. San Quentin - Johnny Cash - an anti "law and order"approach song
14. America - Waylon Jennings - about diversity, anti-war
15. Heartland - Willie Nelson - about foreclosures and the death of the American dream for some
16. Jesus, the Missing Years - John Prine - irreverent with counter-cultural themes
17. Okie from Muskogee - Merle Haggard - Few people on either side of the political spectrum seem to realize this was satire.
18. Conversations with the Devil - Ray Wylie Hubbard - sort of a modern liberal version of Dante's Inferno
19. Travelin' Soldier - Dixie Chicks - anti-war
20. 40 hour week - Alabama - recognition of working class contributions
21. My Uncle - Flying Burrito Brothers - Song of empathy for Vietnam war draft dodgers
22. Coal Miner's Daughter - Loretta Lynn - Underpaid working class heroism
23. Ballad for a soldier - Leon Russell, aka Hank Wilson - antiwar
24. Fishing - Richard Shindell - Solidarity values of an illegal immigrant
25. I Washed my Face in the Morning Dew - Tom T. Hall - about the stigmatization of poverty
26. One Hundred Children - Tom T. Hall - liberal message for children
27. Aragon Mill - Dry Branch Fire Squads - all about the consequences of the "restructuring" of the American economy
28. Workin Band - Nitty Gritty Dirt Band - about unemployment
29. Right or Left at Oak Street - Roy Clark - presents a less than ideal image of suburban living and the purported American dream
30. Two Story House - Tammy Wynette - about suburban airs and hypocrisy, covered up by calculated appearances of affluence.
31. Church - Lyle Lovett - irreverent, or to quote an old leftist friend - "transgressive and counter-hegemonic"
32. Devil Take the Farmer - Dry Branch Fire Squads - about the death of the family farm
33. Blame it on the Stones - Kris Kristofferson - all about middle class provincialism
34. Skip a Rope - Henson Cargill - kind of a country version of Give Peace a Chance applied to sexual and racial relationships
35. That's the News - Merle Haggard - probably the only song of any genre to address the lame media coverage of the Iraq war
36. A Week in Country Jail - Tom T. Hall - about the pettiness of small town law enforcement
37. Common Man - John Conlee - Working class pride expressed as independence of wealth
38. Kids of the Baby Boom - The Bellamy Brothers - reflection on the banalities of American culture in post-WWII affluence.
39. Mississipi on my Mind - Jesse Winchester written, Jerry Jeff Walker performance - Winchester's personal reflections on Mississippi from his haven in Canada while evading the Vietnam war.
40. Hank Williams Said It Best - Guy Clark - anthem for tolerance and acknowledgment of moral nuance - often referred to by the opposition as "moral relativity."
41. Billy B. Damned - Billy Joe Shaver - ironic comment on law and power
42. Don't you think this outlaw bit's done got out of hand?- Waylon Jennings - Jennings comments on overzealous literacy challenged decency brigades who don't get irony.
43. Lights went out in Georgia - Reba McEntire - About southern justice.
44. Peace on Earth - Willie Nelson - Duh.
45. High Cotton - Alabama - another class piece
46. Why can't we all just get a long neck? - Hank Williams - His version of Imagine
47. White House Blues - Vassar Clements - a very political anthem
48. Saginaw, Michigan - Lefty Frizzell - Ballad of a working class hero using his noggin to overcome class bias
49. Copperhead Road - Steve Earle - About post traumatic stress syndrome due to the Vietnam war (Left out Ellis Unit One because a friend told me the song was written after Earle's "fall from grace" in Nashville, and because it was incorporated into the soundtrack for Dead Man Walking).
50. Hobo's Meditation - Dolly Parton - sympathy for the homeless, whether "truly needy" or not.
Update: I posted a link on Daily Kos, and I'm getting more proposals for the list. Again, I'm not familiar with the genre, but I'll consult my "experts" to see if I should expand the list.
Follow-up post with commentary re Pete Townsend, Merle Haggerd, and others.
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"You're Flag Decal Won't Get You Into Heaven Anymore" - John Prine
A song that is anti-war; and mocks phony patriotism.
A song that is anti-war; and mocks phony patriotism.
Dude - Vicki Lawrence originally sang "The Night The Lights Went Out In Georgia".
High Cotton by Alabama contains these lyrics:
"When Sunday mornings rolled around
We dressed up in hand-me-downs
Just in time, together with the church
Sometimes I think how long it's been
And how it impressed me then
It was the only day my daddy wouldn't work"
Haha - liberal? Yeah right.
I don't want to even bother with the rest of your list because you are correct - you don't know country music.
High Cotton by Alabama contains these lyrics:
"When Sunday mornings rolled around
We dressed up in hand-me-downs
Just in time, together with the church
Sometimes I think how long it's been
And how it impressed me then
It was the only day my daddy wouldn't work"
Haha - liberal? Yeah right.
I don't want to even bother with the rest of your list because you are correct - you don't know country music.
# posted by 
: Mon Jun 12, 05:01:00 AM
: Mon Jun 12, 05:01:00 AM
Interesting how songs involving tolerance are considered liberal. That speaks volumes about what might be considered conservative.
And I happen to BE conservative.
And I happen to BE conservative.
If I remember correctly, "The Night the Lights Went Out in Georgia" is about the narrator who actually shot her sister-in-law, too. Liberal values have grown to include vigilante justice, huh?
Seminole Wind by John Anderson, environmental themes about the destruction of the Everglades.
And there's a brilliant environmental song by Alabama that the country stations pretty much refused to play, but I can't remember the name of it.
And there's a brilliant environmental song by Alabama that the country stations pretty much refused to play, but I can't remember the name of it.
# posted by : Mon Jun 12, 05:18:00 AM
: Mon Jun 12, 05:18:00 AM
Copperhead Road is about post traumatic stress?!?
Copperhead Road is about a family of bootleggers, and a son who updates the family business from moonshine production to marijuana production.
And it ain't subtle.
Copperhead Road is about a family of bootleggers, and a son who updates the family business from moonshine production to marijuana production.
And it ain't subtle.
# posted by : Mon Jun 12, 05:23:00 AM
: Mon Jun 12, 05:23:00 AM
You've got some mistakes here, friend. None of the songs you identify with "class" take a liberal approach to this subject. "Common Man", "9 to 5", "Coal Miner's Daughter", and especially "40 Hour Week" are about the nobility of hard work and self reliance. This is, to say the least, not the liberal vision of the American "working class" as disgruntled proletariat. The modern king of this genre, by the way, is Aaron Tippin. He's done dozens of songs on this theme (see "Working Man's Ph. D." and "I Got It Honest" for starters), and neither he nor his music can be fairly described as "liberal."
Oh, and I've got my doubts about "Okie from Muskogee" as satire. To Haggard fans this song is inextricably linked to "Fightin' Side of Me", which goes in part "I read about some squirrely guy who claims that he just don't believe in fightin'/and I wonder just how long the rest of us can count on bein' free." If Haggard was pro-hippie back then, he did a good job of hiding it. Also, you should know that Haggard's current anti-Bush and anti-Iraq War stance isn't really liberal at all, but a strain of America First-type isolationist conservatism.
Oh, and I've got my doubts about "Okie from Muskogee" as satire. To Haggard fans this song is inextricably linked to "Fightin' Side of Me", which goes in part "I read about some squirrely guy who claims that he just don't believe in fightin'/and I wonder just how long the rest of us can count on bein' free." If Haggard was pro-hippie back then, he did a good job of hiding it. Also, you should know that Haggard's current anti-Bush and anti-Iraq War stance isn't really liberal at all, but a strain of America First-type isolationist conservatism.
I read your list and am familiar with many of these songs.
"Okie From Muskogee" is satire? You don't know what the hell you're talking about.
"Okie From Muskogee" is satire? You don't know what the hell you're talking about.
I think to qualify as "country" a song or artist has to have had significant air time on country radio. An artist from another genre who does a "country-style" song or two really doesn't count.
By that standard the one song you said you were unsure about -- Sixteen Tons -- definitely qualifies as country. But many of the songs and artists you list aren't even close. John Prine, Flying Burrito Brothers, Leon Russell, Jesse (not Jeff) Winchester, or Jerry Jeff Walker are pretty much unknown on country radio.
Most of the songs you list aren't liberal at all. You clearly don't know the difference between liberal and populist. Populism comes in both left-wing and right-wing flavors, and the values espoused in country music are almost exclusively right-wing populist, not liberal.
When you take off the songs that either aren't liberal or aren't country, there's not a lot left. Some, but not a lot.
As for "Okie From Muskogee", even if Merle Haggard wrote it as a satire (which I very much doubt), the fans heard it straight, and made it an ant-counter-cultural anthem. (Were you even alive when "Okie" was a hit?) If you want satire (parody, actually), it's not "Okie From Muskogee"; it's "Hippie From Olema" by the Yougbloods.
By that standard the one song you said you were unsure about -- Sixteen Tons -- definitely qualifies as country. But many of the songs and artists you list aren't even close. John Prine, Flying Burrito Brothers, Leon Russell, Jesse (not Jeff) Winchester, or Jerry Jeff Walker are pretty much unknown on country radio.
Most of the songs you list aren't liberal at all. You clearly don't know the difference between liberal and populist. Populism comes in both left-wing and right-wing flavors, and the values espoused in country music are almost exclusively right-wing populist, not liberal.
When you take off the songs that either aren't liberal or aren't country, there's not a lot left. Some, but not a lot.
As for "Okie From Muskogee", even if Merle Haggard wrote it as a satire (which I very much doubt), the fans heard it straight, and made it an ant-counter-cultural anthem. (Were you even alive when "Okie" was a hit?) If you want satire (parody, actually), it's not "Okie From Muskogee"; it's "Hippie From Olema" by the Yougbloods.
How about "Passionate Kisses"--written by Lucinda Williams and popularized by Mary Chapin-Carpenter. The song celebrates a woman's enjoyment of physical pleasure, which is something that social conservatives abhor.
# posted by : Mon Jun 12, 06:44:00 AM
: Mon Jun 12, 06:44:00 AM
Haggard on the song:
Haggard being misunderstood by his listeners is nothing new. In 1969, at the peak of the counterculture and widespread student protest against U.S. involvement in Vietnam, Hag released "Okie From Muskogee," and it shot straight to the top of the country charts. In the song's opening lines, Haggard earnestly sings, "We don't smoke marijuana in Muskogee/We don't take our trips on LSD/We don't burn our draft cards down on Main Street/'Cause we like livin' right and bein' free." Conservative America quickly and enthusiastically adopted "Okie" as an anthem that reflected their values. Richard Nixon sent Haggard a letter of congratulations, George Wallace wanted him for his presidential campaign, and the white supremacist David Duke asked him to play a private party. Says Haggard, "I told him [Duke] to go get fucked."
Most people did not realize (and some still don't) that "Okie From Muskogee" was a social commentary that did not necessarily reflect Haggard's personal worldview. "Ya know, I'm like an actor, and whatever role you see an actor in shouldn't have anything to do with his own personality, but it does, of course," he says. "That song typecasted me for a long time.
"'Okie From Muskogee' was written about my father, and it was my intention to try to see things from his viewpoint. Had he been alive at that time, I think he woulda said, 'We're happy with the way things are here in the middle of Oklahoma, and we're really not wantin' to get out in the street and bitch like the people in Frisco.' The song was a contrast to what was going on, and there was nobody speaking up for [people like my dad], and I thought I'd jump out there and write a song for him."
Haggard continues, "It ['Okie From Muskogee'] nearly stopped my career. They were beginning to play me on rock stations, and it stopped all that. A lot of people who analyzed my career said that song was probably a mistake. But Willie Nelson said, 'Hey, if you don't want the son of a bitch, I'll trade you "Crazy" for it!'" Hag laughs a hearty laugh and goes on to say that he doesn't really have regrets about the song.
"If I was to do it over again, it would take a lot more thought. I thought it was funny. The song was humorous. It was like the epitome of the ignorance on certain subjects. But I'll be damned if people like Wallace and Nixon didn't take it for the truth. It makes me wonder what kind of politicians we've got in [Washington] now. Do they have the same mentality as they did during the days of 'Okie From Muskogee'?"
http://www.anti.com/press.php?id=14&pid=345
Haggard being misunderstood by his listeners is nothing new. In 1969, at the peak of the counterculture and widespread student protest against U.S. involvement in Vietnam, Hag released "Okie From Muskogee," and it shot straight to the top of the country charts. In the song's opening lines, Haggard earnestly sings, "We don't smoke marijuana in Muskogee/We don't take our trips on LSD/We don't burn our draft cards down on Main Street/'Cause we like livin' right and bein' free." Conservative America quickly and enthusiastically adopted "Okie" as an anthem that reflected their values. Richard Nixon sent Haggard a letter of congratulations, George Wallace wanted him for his presidential campaign, and the white supremacist David Duke asked him to play a private party. Says Haggard, "I told him [Duke] to go get fucked."
Most people did not realize (and some still don't) that "Okie From Muskogee" was a social commentary that did not necessarily reflect Haggard's personal worldview. "Ya know, I'm like an actor, and whatever role you see an actor in shouldn't have anything to do with his own personality, but it does, of course," he says. "That song typecasted me for a long time.
"'Okie From Muskogee' was written about my father, and it was my intention to try to see things from his viewpoint. Had he been alive at that time, I think he woulda said, 'We're happy with the way things are here in the middle of Oklahoma, and we're really not wantin' to get out in the street and bitch like the people in Frisco.' The song was a contrast to what was going on, and there was nobody speaking up for [people like my dad], and I thought I'd jump out there and write a song for him."
Haggard continues, "It ['Okie From Muskogee'] nearly stopped my career. They were beginning to play me on rock stations, and it stopped all that. A lot of people who analyzed my career said that song was probably a mistake. But Willie Nelson said, 'Hey, if you don't want the son of a bitch, I'll trade you "Crazy" for it!'" Hag laughs a hearty laugh and goes on to say that he doesn't really have regrets about the song.
"If I was to do it over again, it would take a lot more thought. I thought it was funny. The song was humorous. It was like the epitome of the ignorance on certain subjects. But I'll be damned if people like Wallace and Nixon didn't take it for the truth. It makes me wonder what kind of politicians we've got in [Washington] now. Do they have the same mentality as they did during the days of 'Okie From Muskogee'?"
http://www.anti.com/press.php?id=14&pid=345
# posted by : Mon Jun 12, 06:52:00 AM
: Mon Jun 12, 06:52:00 AM
Jeff, High Cotton also talks about the dad getting a job with the TVA and the family being "saved" by Mr. Roosevelt.
# posted by : Mon Jun 12, 07:02:00 AM
: Mon Jun 12, 07:02:00 AM
Bah! Don't let anyone tell you you didn't do a good job. I don't give a darn about "inside" "outside" either. Have another for you. Mary Chapin Carpenter "He Thinks He'll Keep Her" a feminist comment on the sexism of that phrase and the cultural ideology behind it. Shania Twain also has several feminist songs: "Any Man of Mine" having fun with typical societal expectations of women and applying them to men, "You Want To Touch Her, Ask!" "I Ain't Going Down" A positive portrait of a single mother and her daughter.
>Rainbow Stew - Merle Haggard - lyrics a bit vague, but conjures up liberal imagery
The lyrics are not vague. The song makes fun of the welfare state mentality.
The lyrics are not vague. The song makes fun of the welfare state mentality.
# posted by : Mon Jun 12, 07:05:00 AM
: Mon Jun 12, 07:05:00 AM
'Okie From Muskogee' was written about my father, and it was my intention to try to see things from his viewpoint
That's interesting. I've never heard that before. Problem is, there's no way a listener would be able to discern this just from hearing the song and the lyrics sung. So if we've all misconstrued Mr. Haggard's meaning all these years, he's got no one but himself to blame.
That's interesting. I've never heard that before. Problem is, there's no way a listener would be able to discern this just from hearing the song and the lyrics sung. So if we've all misconstrued Mr. Haggard's meaning all these years, he's got no one but himself to blame.
# posted by : Mon Jun 12, 07:08:00 AM
: Mon Jun 12, 07:08:00 AM
The problem with both the lists is that half the songs aren't really conservative or liberal. They involve universal aspirations where the only real disagreements are the means to achieve them.
# posted by : Mon Jun 12, 07:14:00 AM
: Mon Jun 12, 07:14:00 AM
Ciardha beat me to Mary Chapin Carpenter. Another song by her is "Stones in the Road," which talks about our neglect of the poor and hungry and includes the line "A thousand points of light or shame, baby, I don't know."
I think you've done a pretty good job. It's unfortunate that you feel you have to leave out "alt-country" (which, to my mind, is real country music, not what's been playing on the radio the last decade or so), because the general mood there is a lot more liberal. Still, good job.
I'd have gone back to Johnny Cash a few more times, though: "The Ballad of Ira Hayes," a stern lecture about how the American Indian is treated in America -- "Don't Go Near The Water," an environmental anthem about the poisoning of the streams -- "The One On The Right," very tongue-in-cheek political commentary -- "What Is Truth," which stands up there with "Man in Black" as an anthem for the oppressed and downtrodden as well as being anti-war; not to mention a huge section of the "Live at Madison Square Garden" album.
These days it's really hard to tell who's actually country and who isn't, so stick to your guns. He never gets political, but Dale Watson is REALLY what country music ought to sound like (but doesn't). - Kathy Coleman, media reviewer, countrymusicabout.com
I'd have gone back to Johnny Cash a few more times, though: "The Ballad of Ira Hayes," a stern lecture about how the American Indian is treated in America -- "Don't Go Near The Water," an environmental anthem about the poisoning of the streams -- "The One On The Right," very tongue-in-cheek political commentary -- "What Is Truth," which stands up there with "Man in Black" as an anthem for the oppressed and downtrodden as well as being anti-war; not to mention a huge section of the "Live at Madison Square Garden" album.
These days it's really hard to tell who's actually country and who isn't, so stick to your guns. He never gets political, but Dale Watson is REALLY what country music ought to sound like (but doesn't). - Kathy Coleman, media reviewer, countrymusicabout.com
# posted by : Mon Jun 12, 07:52:00 AM
: Mon Jun 12, 07:52:00 AM
I like how "the death of the American dream" is considered to be "liberal".
# posted by : Mon Jun 12, 08:38:00 AM
: Mon Jun 12, 08:38:00 AM
For what it's worth Townshend has weighed in on the whole "Won't Get Fooled Again" as conservative song dicussion.
Townshend's Diary
Townshend's Diary
# posted by : Mon Jun 12, 09:28:00 AM
: Mon Jun 12, 09:28:00 AM
A few comments:
- I agree with those who have said that "working man" and "tough times" songs are not necessarily liberal, and in the case of most such songs on this list, aren't.
- What, no cheatin' songs? "A Little Less Talk and a Lot More Action" would seem a perfect fit for the libertine crowd. How about "Save a Horse, Ride a Cowboy"? You get the sex angle and make PETA happy at the same time!
- The ignorance of country music here is palpable, both in the original post and in the comments. The Alabama line about Roosevelt is in "Song of the South," not "High Cotton." The Alabama pro-environment song ("Pass It on Down") got lots of airplay and is on a couple of the group's "greatest hits" anthologies. "Any Man of Mine" is feminist? It sounds like it could have been written by my high-maintenance grandmother.
- Maybe it was the Chicks' intention, but there is no reason why "Travellin' Soldier" has to necessarily be interpreted as antiwar. Rather, it simply deals with the reality of war, and even conservatives freely admit that war is tragic. Many families in this country who support the Iraq war have nevertheless lost a loved one to it.
- Saying that "Passionate Kisses" is a liberal ode to "female physical pleasure" is a real stretch. The key word in the title is "passion," as in emotional bonding. The song also reels off a list of her material wants (e.g., "a comfortable bed that won't hurt my back"), so it would seem an odd choice as a "liberal" song.
- I completely agree with the nomination of Carpenter's "He Thinks He'll Keep Her." Glorifying a woman's selfish choice to ditch her husband and children because she is tired of doing the "mom thing" is an almost perfect theme song for liberalism. If it just a had a line about her going to work at a strip club, becoming a lesbian, and asking for a government handout, it would be perfect.
- Kathy Coleman: No one cares what your definition of "real country music" is. The point here was to list songs that are popular, i.e., get airplay and generate record sales. Personally, I would have liked to have seen Sons of the Desert, Sherrie Austin, Kasey Chambers, Tammy Rogers, and Kim Richey become more popular, but that's not how it worked out.
- I agree with those who have said that "working man" and "tough times" songs are not necessarily liberal, and in the case of most such songs on this list, aren't.
- What, no cheatin' songs? "A Little Less Talk and a Lot More Action" would seem a perfect fit for the libertine crowd. How about "Save a Horse, Ride a Cowboy"? You get the sex angle and make PETA happy at the same time!
- The ignorance of country music here is palpable, both in the original post and in the comments. The Alabama line about Roosevelt is in "Song of the South," not "High Cotton." The Alabama pro-environment song ("Pass It on Down") got lots of airplay and is on a couple of the group's "greatest hits" anthologies. "Any Man of Mine" is feminist? It sounds like it could have been written by my high-maintenance grandmother.
- Maybe it was the Chicks' intention, but there is no reason why "Travellin' Soldier" has to necessarily be interpreted as antiwar. Rather, it simply deals with the reality of war, and even conservatives freely admit that war is tragic. Many families in this country who support the Iraq war have nevertheless lost a loved one to it.
- Saying that "Passionate Kisses" is a liberal ode to "female physical pleasure" is a real stretch. The key word in the title is "passion," as in emotional bonding. The song also reels off a list of her material wants (e.g., "a comfortable bed that won't hurt my back"), so it would seem an odd choice as a "liberal" song.
- I completely agree with the nomination of Carpenter's "He Thinks He'll Keep Her." Glorifying a woman's selfish choice to ditch her husband and children because she is tired of doing the "mom thing" is an almost perfect theme song for liberalism. If it just a had a line about her going to work at a strip club, becoming a lesbian, and asking for a government handout, it would be perfect.
- Kathy Coleman: No one cares what your definition of "real country music" is. The point here was to list songs that are popular, i.e., get airplay and generate record sales. Personally, I would have liked to have seen Sons of the Desert, Sherrie Austin, Kasey Chambers, Tammy Rogers, and Kim Richey become more popular, but that's not how it worked out.
Interesting List,
I'm one of those NRO Readers you warned the locals about :).
First, to my fellow conservatives, LIGHTEN UP! The guy attempted to make a list out of music he usually doesn't listen to and he had far less time to do it in than John Miller did. Some of the songs here are entirely appropriate. Others are here only because of a couple of lines in the song. Still the sentiment is there. The condencending and combative tone some of us have taken with Mr. Kirk doesn't change what is writen in the songs or do us any credit.
Mr. Kirk, you might have taken a bit of time and listened to some of the songs you included on your list. Most of these songs could probably be found at your local library. Stop by there this Saturday and listen to a couple of the songs people are telling you about here (bring a friend if you want a second opinion). After you hear some of the music, you might want to redo your list.
I remember Copperhead Road being played on the local Rock stations when I was in school. I think you'll find it's more "Southern Rock" than "Country". It does contain a reference to PTSD, but I don't think even a liberal can claim to approve of what he does with his experience from Vietnam. Here's the lyrics from the final verse:
I volunteered for the Army on my birthday
They draft the white trash first,'round here anyway
I done two tours of duty in Vietnam
And I came home with a brand new plan
I take the seed from Colombia and Mexico
I plant it up the holler down Copperhead Road
Well the D.E.A.'s got a chopper in the air
I wake up screaming like I'm back over there
I learned a thing or two from ol' Charlie don't you know
You better stay away from Copperhead Road
Finally, Why didn't Toby Kieth's "I'll Never Smoke Weed with Willy Again" make the list. I know legalized marijuana is a far left idea, but it's still liberal :).
I'm one of those NRO Readers you warned the locals about :).
First, to my fellow conservatives, LIGHTEN UP! The guy attempted to make a list out of music he usually doesn't listen to and he had far less time to do it in than John Miller did. Some of the songs here are entirely appropriate. Others are here only because of a couple of lines in the song. Still the sentiment is there. The condencending and combative tone some of us have taken with Mr. Kirk doesn't change what is writen in the songs or do us any credit.
Mr. Kirk, you might have taken a bit of time and listened to some of the songs you included on your list. Most of these songs could probably be found at your local library. Stop by there this Saturday and listen to a couple of the songs people are telling you about here (bring a friend if you want a second opinion). After you hear some of the music, you might want to redo your list.
I remember Copperhead Road being played on the local Rock stations when I was in school. I think you'll find it's more "Southern Rock" than "Country". It does contain a reference to PTSD, but I don't think even a liberal can claim to approve of what he does with his experience from Vietnam. Here's the lyrics from the final verse:
I volunteered for the Army on my birthday
They draft the white trash first,'round here anyway
I done two tours of duty in Vietnam
And I came home with a brand new plan
I take the seed from Colombia and Mexico
I plant it up the holler down Copperhead Road
Well the D.E.A.'s got a chopper in the air
I wake up screaming like I'm back over there
I learned a thing or two from ol' Charlie don't you know
You better stay away from Copperhead Road
Finally, Why didn't Toby Kieth's "I'll Never Smoke Weed with Willy Again" make the list. I know legalized marijuana is a far left idea, but it's still liberal :).
# posted by : Mon Jun 12, 11:24:00 AM
: Mon Jun 12, 11:24:00 AM
Jeff, High Cotton also talks about the dad getting a job with the TVA and the family being "saved" by Mr. Roosevelt.
Ummm, no. Those references are from Song of the South.
Ummm, no. Those references are from Song of the South.
# posted by : Mon Jun 12, 11:29:00 AM
: Mon Jun 12, 11:29:00 AM
Eric:
If Okie from Muskogee was satire, then the Horst Wessel song should leave you in stitches. And it's Jesse Winchester, not Jeff Winchester. BTW: there really is a left-wing country and western song. It's "Are They Gonna Make Us Outlaws Again?" Good politics. Good tune.
Mike H
If Okie from Muskogee was satire, then the Horst Wessel song should leave you in stitches. And it's Jesse Winchester, not Jeff Winchester. BTW: there really is a left-wing country and western song. It's "Are They Gonna Make Us Outlaws Again?" Good politics. Good tune.
Mike H
# posted by : Mon Jun 12, 12:41:00 PM
: Mon Jun 12, 12:41:00 PM
You're going to have a problem with this regardless because country music is so tied to story.
See, my nominations would have been "Old Hippie" by the Bellamy Brothers and "Independence Day" by Martina McBride. But is "Old Hippie" celebrating a liberal past or endorsing a conservative future? Does "Independence Day" express a "I am woman, hear me roar" feminism or the old unspoken conservative maxim that justice sometimes doesn't pause for the law?
Country music's reliance on story (particularly familiar story) makes it tricky to generate songs with popular liberal (as opposed to populist, as has been noted) sentiments. It's much easier to tell conservative stories, though, because you don't have to fill in all the backstory in your three-minute song.
See, my nominations would have been "Old Hippie" by the Bellamy Brothers and "Independence Day" by Martina McBride. But is "Old Hippie" celebrating a liberal past or endorsing a conservative future? Does "Independence Day" express a "I am woman, hear me roar" feminism or the old unspoken conservative maxim that justice sometimes doesn't pause for the law?
Country music's reliance on story (particularly familiar story) makes it tricky to generate songs with popular liberal (as opposed to populist, as has been noted) sentiments. It's much easier to tell conservative stories, though, because you don't have to fill in all the backstory in your three-minute song.
Wow! Just got back from a deposition to find all these messages, and probably a million more on some of the sites where I posted the link. I'm at work and don't have time to respond to everything except to point out that everything I posted was based on a reading of the lyrics - not listening to the song. I realize nuances can be lost.
As to whether they all belong on the list, as you say, some of the songs are a stretch. But then, many libs feel the same way about NRO's rock list. Point is, we're just having fun here. Relax.
As to whether they all belong on the list, as you say, some of the songs are a stretch. But then, many libs feel the same way about NRO's rock list. Point is, we're just having fun here. Relax.
Re Merle Haggard and Okie:
'Okie' Examined
http://www.populist.com/06.4.letters.html
In "Music and Politics Intersect" [2/1/06 TPP], Rob Patterson tells us
that Merle Haggard was always misunderstood on "Okie From Muskogee."
I have heard several other music journalists say this, and I have
never understood what they were talking about. The song seems
straightforward enough; it warns us not to question authority, not to
disrespect college deans who approve napalm production, not to get out
and protest war, not to wear unconventional clothing, and to revere
the flag, because that's the only way to live right.
When the song came out I had just read The Grapes of Wrath, and I
thought, "Why would an OKIE, of all people, suggest obeisance to "THE
MAN?"
Please, Rob, explain to me what Merle was really saying.
Larry Surber
Stoneville, N.C.
Patterson replies: Well, Larry, the Hag was indeed saying just what he
seems to be saying, but with his tongue perhaps a bit too perfectly
set in his cheek. The genesis of "Okie" was as an in-joke for the boys
in the band on the bus as they rolled through Oklahoma past a road
sign for Muskogee. As the story goes, Haggard picked up his guitar and
sang the first line -- "We don't smoke marijuana in Muskogee" -- and
it cracked everyone up (the Haggard legend suggests that they were
likely passing around a joint as he sang it). So he followed the
thread as a good writer should, and when the band dared him to sing it
onstage for their amusement a few nights later, the crowd went wild.
"Okie" may be the quintessential double entendre in song. Because
Haggard has always written with respect for the common man (i.e. true
populism), the type of folks it describes heard it as a rallying cry.
Those on the other side of the cultural divide at the time when it was
written heard a picture perfect stereotype. Whatever way you hear it
-- and ambiguity is often found in the best topical songwriting --
"Okie" certainly captured the zeitgeist of that era. In the very same
breath, it's an affectionate nod and a gentle jab of jest to the ribs
of those it describes and the attitudes they held. It's a character
study and a damned good one to boot, as proven by the song's cultural
impact. Listen to the song, and note that it doesn't tell us to do
anything. It simply shows us a person and point of view that were
indeed real.
Even a cursory look at Haggard's life and career suggests that he's
never been one practice nor preach obeisance to "the man." Delve into
his catalog and you'll find odes to the dispossessed that are as
eloquent, resonant and heartfelt as Steinbeck's. A good place to start
might be the songwriter's tribute album, Tulare Dust, on which
admirers like Lucinda Williams, Dwight Yoakam, Dave Alvin, Tom Russell
and others interpret some of his finest tales of real life struggle
and strife on the cusp of the American dream. And then go further and
delve into the music made by one of the greatest country music voices
ever -- as a singer and a writer -- who also happens to be a genuine
populist poet of the highest order. You might be pleasantly surprised
by what you find.
'Okie' Examined
http://www.populist.com/06.4.letters.html
In "Music and Politics Intersect" [2/1/06 TPP], Rob Patterson tells us
that Merle Haggard was always misunderstood on "Okie From Muskogee."
I have heard several other music journalists say this, and I have
never understood what they were talking about. The song seems
straightforward enough; it warns us not to question authority, not to
disrespect college deans who approve napalm production, not to get out
and protest war, not to wear unconventional clothing, and to revere
the flag, because that's the only way to live right.
When the song came out I had just read The Grapes of Wrath, and I
thought, "Why would an OKIE, of all people, suggest obeisance to "THE
MAN?"
Please, Rob, explain to me what Merle was really saying.
Larry Surber
Stoneville, N.C.
Patterson replies: Well, Larry, the Hag was indeed saying just what he
seems to be saying, but with his tongue perhaps a bit too perfectly
set in his cheek. The genesis of "Okie" was as an in-joke for the boys
in the band on the bus as they rolled through Oklahoma past a road
sign for Muskogee. As the story goes, Haggard picked up his guitar and
sang the first line -- "We don't smoke marijuana in Muskogee" -- and
it cracked everyone up (the Haggard legend suggests that they were
likely passing around a joint as he sang it). So he followed the
thread as a good writer should, and when the band dared him to sing it
onstage for their amusement a few nights later, the crowd went wild.
"Okie" may be the quintessential double entendre in song. Because
Haggard has always written with respect for the common man (i.e. true
populism), the type of folks it describes heard it as a rallying cry.
Those on the other side of the cultural divide at the time when it was
written heard a picture perfect stereotype. Whatever way you hear it
-- and ambiguity is often found in the best topical songwriting --
"Okie" certainly captured the zeitgeist of that era. In the very same
breath, it's an affectionate nod and a gentle jab of jest to the ribs
of those it describes and the attitudes they held. It's a character
study and a damned good one to boot, as proven by the song's cultural
impact. Listen to the song, and note that it doesn't tell us to do
anything. It simply shows us a person and point of view that were
indeed real.
Even a cursory look at Haggard's life and career suggests that he's
never been one practice nor preach obeisance to "the man." Delve into
his catalog and you'll find odes to the dispossessed that are as
eloquent, resonant and heartfelt as Steinbeck's. A good place to start
might be the songwriter's tribute album, Tulare Dust, on which
admirers like Lucinda Williams, Dwight Yoakam, Dave Alvin, Tom Russell
and others interpret some of his finest tales of real life struggle
and strife on the cusp of the American dream. And then go further and
delve into the music made by one of the greatest country music voices
ever -- as a singer and a writer -- who also happens to be a genuine
populist poet of the highest order. You might be pleasantly surprised
by what you find.
You should have included Reba Macintyre's (I'm pretty sure I mis-spelt her name) "I'll Take My Chances":
I sat alone in the dark one night, tuning in my remote / I found a preacher who spoke of the light / But there was brimstone in his throat / He’d show me the way according to him / In return for my personal check / I flipped my channel back to CNN and I lit another cigarette
Glad someone mentioned "Seminole Wind." Heck, I'm not an envionrmentalist and that song even makes ME shiver.
And you can't forget the Highwaymen. I'm not sure whether they're alt country or not but "Deportee" is the ultimate sympathy for the illegal immigrant song.
I sat alone in the dark one night, tuning in my remote / I found a preacher who spoke of the light / But there was brimstone in his throat / He’d show me the way according to him / In return for my personal check / I flipped my channel back to CNN and I lit another cigarette
Glad someone mentioned "Seminole Wind." Heck, I'm not an envionrmentalist and that song even makes ME shiver.
And you can't forget the Highwaymen. I'm not sure whether they're alt country or not but "Deportee" is the ultimate sympathy for the illegal immigrant song.
# posted by : Mon Jun 12, 05:45:00 PM
: Mon Jun 12, 05:45:00 PM
If you're aiming for one song per artist, you should definitely replace Nanci Griffith's "Trouble in the Fields" with "Time of Inconvenience." It's less strictly country, but more overtly liberal.
Good list overall though! Keep it up.
Good list overall though! Keep it up.
Regarding the post two above, "I'll Take My Chances" is by the very liberal Mary Chapin Carpenter, not Reba. It's not a shocker that Carpenter recorded it on the same album as "He Thinks He'll Keep Her".
Regarding the whole argument over "Okie," I have also heard and read the Haggard did not really mean it as a straight-up song (although whether he meant it as actual satire is a little cloudy). At any rate, it's a moot point. If I sit down and write what I think is a viciously clever satire of the "antiwar" movement, but no one gets the joke and the song subsequently gets adopted as an antiwar anthem, then at that point I have lost control of it. I can shout from the rooftops that I didn't really mean it and that it was all a joke, but it won't matter -- Larger cultural forces have changed the song's intended meaning and carried it in a very different direction.
Whatever Haggard meant when he wrote the song is immaterial. There was a huge portion of the country in 1971 (and still today, for that matter) that was gloriously unconcerned with being hip and heard in "Okie" an anthem for their values. Whatever Haggard intended, the song became and still is a conservative heartland classic celebrating the kinds of values that snide liberals like to use as a punchline.
Regarding the whole argument over "Okie," I have also heard and read the Haggard did not really mean it as a straight-up song (although whether he meant it as actual satire is a little cloudy). At any rate, it's a moot point. If I sit down and write what I think is a viciously clever satire of the "antiwar" movement, but no one gets the joke and the song subsequently gets adopted as an antiwar anthem, then at that point I have lost control of it. I can shout from the rooftops that I didn't really mean it and that it was all a joke, but it won't matter -- Larger cultural forces have changed the song's intended meaning and carried it in a very different direction.
Whatever Haggard meant when he wrote the song is immaterial. There was a huge portion of the country in 1971 (and still today, for that matter) that was gloriously unconcerned with being hip and heard in "Okie" an anthem for their values. Whatever Haggard intended, the song became and still is a conservative heartland classic celebrating the kinds of values that snide liberals like to use as a punchline.
Nice job. I din't think it could be done, and I don't think you nailed every one, but some smart people could have worked a lot harder (by your admission) and not done as well.
NROnik & country music fan,
Pat
NROnik & country music fan,
Pat
# posted by : Mon Jun 12, 07:44:00 PM
: Mon Jun 12, 07:44:00 PM
Okay, so I think there's enough controversy about John Prine to exclude him.
As for Okie, well, we're going to have to disagree on that. Yes, many conservatives adopted the song with pride. Many conservatives also miss the irony of Archie Bunker and get behind what he says. Ultimately, that's part of the joke. Of course, the liberals who reacted to the song were also part of the joke. I'm going to put together a separate post on Haggard. Apparently he was arrested as a young man right here in Humboldt County.
"Old Hippie" is one of my backup songs. Consider it the replacement for Prine's song.
Is Mary Chapin Carpenter considered country? Always thought of it as more standard pop. Get's played on easy rock stations. She had several songs.
Nobody complained about Nancy Griffith being on the list. She was another borderline case.
As to some of the songs being on the list because of one or two lines (thank you for the kind words ssg James - Miller received some similar responses from my fellow liberals. I guess people can be very emotional about their music.) - consider some of Miller's choices, such as CCR's "Who'll Stop the Rain" for the lines “Five-year plans and new deals, wrapped in golden chains ...” Or Cat Stephens' Father and Son based on the father's lines, when clearly the song gave the son the last word and identified with the son's point of view more than the father's. I'm playing by those rules.
It seems from these posts and those on Daily Kos that there are plenty of better examples than some of those I chose. Again, I simply based my decisions on quick readings of the lyrics, as I'm only familiar with maybe 10 to 15 of the songs I listed.
Tenzil - welcome to my blog, and thanx for your comments. I assume you're here from Cygnus.
biggerton - A Boy Named Sue has come up in suggestions, but I just don't see the liberal theme. Maybe something about the younger generation of parenting being less harsh than the older, but that seems a stretch even by the rules we're playing with.
Everyone - Please lighten up! I posted this list for fun, not to offend anybody. I believe the same of Miller's intentions.
And thanx for these comments, even the angry ones.
As for Okie, well, we're going to have to disagree on that. Yes, many conservatives adopted the song with pride. Many conservatives also miss the irony of Archie Bunker and get behind what he says. Ultimately, that's part of the joke. Of course, the liberals who reacted to the song were also part of the joke. I'm going to put together a separate post on Haggard. Apparently he was arrested as a young man right here in Humboldt County.
"Old Hippie" is one of my backup songs. Consider it the replacement for Prine's song.
Is Mary Chapin Carpenter considered country? Always thought of it as more standard pop. Get's played on easy rock stations. She had several songs.
Nobody complained about Nancy Griffith being on the list. She was another borderline case.
As to some of the songs being on the list because of one or two lines (thank you for the kind words ssg James - Miller received some similar responses from my fellow liberals. I guess people can be very emotional about their music.) - consider some of Miller's choices, such as CCR's "Who'll Stop the Rain" for the lines “Five-year plans and new deals, wrapped in golden chains ...” Or Cat Stephens' Father and Son based on the father's lines, when clearly the song gave the son the last word and identified with the son's point of view more than the father's. I'm playing by those rules.
It seems from these posts and those on Daily Kos that there are plenty of better examples than some of those I chose. Again, I simply based my decisions on quick readings of the lyrics, as I'm only familiar with maybe 10 to 15 of the songs I listed.
Tenzil - welcome to my blog, and thanx for your comments. I assume you're here from Cygnus.
biggerton - A Boy Named Sue has come up in suggestions, but I just don't see the liberal theme. Maybe something about the younger generation of parenting being less harsh than the older, but that seems a stretch even by the rules we're playing with.
Everyone - Please lighten up! I posted this list for fun, not to offend anybody. I believe the same of Miller's intentions.
And thanx for these comments, even the angry ones.
For the record, I wasn't enamored with John Miller's list, either. He had some songs on his "second 50" list that I thought were much better choices than some on the original list. Additionally, I thought he should have included pop music, thus allowing him to add songs like "Living in America" and "Englishman in New York."
I disagreed with your inclusion of Nancy Griffith, but I had at least heard of her, unlike some of the other people on the list. As far as I'm concerned, if radio hasn't played it, it shouldn't be considered. Not that airplay is the arbiter of artistic merit (it certainly isn't), but it is a measure of popularity and public exposure. There's really no point in including songs almost no one has ever heard.
By the way, I think biggerton was pulling your leg concerning "Sue." I think he's sarcastically saying that liberals are nancy boys.
I disagreed with your inclusion of Nancy Griffith, but I had at least heard of her, unlike some of the other people on the list. As far as I'm concerned, if radio hasn't played it, it shouldn't be considered. Not that airplay is the arbiter of artistic merit (it certainly isn't), but it is a measure of popularity and public exposure. There's really no point in including songs almost no one has ever heard.
By the way, I think biggerton was pulling your leg concerning "Sue." I think he's sarcastically saying that liberals are nancy boys.
I can't say how much play if any Nancy Griffith gets on the radio. She does manage to sell albums. She was raised in a trailer park in West Texas, and what she plays is definitely country. She gets play out here, but California is a different story.
I heard a rumor that she was finally allowed on the Grand Ol Opry after 20 years of exhile, but that she blew it by singing an anti-war song. Kind of what Jim Morrison did to Ed Sullivan.
You may be right about biggerton and A Boy Named Sue. As I think about it, the previous suggestions might have been in the same vein.
I heard a rumor that she was finally allowed on the Grand Ol Opry after 20 years of exhile, but that she blew it by singing an anti-war song. Kind of what Jim Morrison did to Ed Sullivan.
You may be right about biggerton and A Boy Named Sue. As I think about it, the previous suggestions might have been in the same vein.
Copperhead Road had a line dance, it has to be country!
Hot Hot Hot! by Buster Poindexter also had a line dance in country music clubs. I can't really see it as a country tune.
Hot Hot Hot! by Buster Poindexter also had a line dance in country music clubs. I can't really see it as a country tune.
# posted by : Tue Jun 13, 10:14:00 AM
: Tue Jun 13, 10:14:00 AM
Is country music fundamentally reactionary and conservative? Yes.
Is it fundamentally humanist and liberal? Yes.
The attempt to categorize either country or rock by political categories misses the point. Listen to the music. Both genres are more about frustration and alienation than they are about politics.
A good portion of the reason that Okie from Muskogee gained so much popularity is because the music itself is so damned infectious that once you’ve heard it you can’t get it out of your mind – which ever side you are on – and because it’s light-hearted and funny. Even if you take it literally there’s a wry self-deprecating attitude in the use of the term “Okie” – generally a derogatory characterization. The song is about people who understand they are being looked down on as unsophisticated and square by those who thought themselves cool, sophisticated and hip. It’s not a political anthem, it’s a cultural anthem, parody or no….
Among my came-of-age in the 60's anti-Vietnam war demographic ilk it's hard to find many country fans. The unsubtle heart-on-your-sleeve story-telling style of country music is generally an embarrassment to the educated and/or cool left – hence Eric’s understandable unfamiliarity with the genre. And there's enough enthusiastic sinnin', drinkin’, fightin’, cheatin’ and leavin’ going on in these stories that I suspect the religious right will not claim county as its own either – in spite of all the religious references.
But many of these stories strike a chord with me. At the heart of country music is a deep frustration and confusion over how to respond to a world in which the idealized good ole days of our agrarian past (hard-workin’ right livelihood with a strong connection to family and/or the land) have given way to a modern society built from disconnected and interchangeable working units in pursuit of an elusive monetary standard of success. Even the songs about ramblin’ cowboys and truck drivin’ reflect an effort to find place and meaning in an increasingly fenced in 9-5 world where “settling down” really means “settling for” a life in which the working man/woman has little to no control over his time, his work, his family, or his “representative” government. It is a profound political failure of both the right and the left that virtually none of these issues are ever effectively addressed by anyone. The deck is stacked — and country fans know it at a visceral level that political operatives of all stripes are well-paid to misconstrue.
The small businesses harassed by bureaucratic pettiness and inefficiency as well as economic changes well beyond their control (and often their understanding) are perhaps the last remnants of middle class independence. Yet the right uses these enterprises as poster children for policies that actually strengthen the hand of huge corporate players and weaken the ability of small business to survive in an increasingly competitive global economic environment. Meanwhile the left seeks to mitigate rapacious corporate business practices and the resulting social fallout through a one-two punch of regulation and social programs both of which undermine the ability of the working class to achieve any kind control over their day-to-day lives. No wonder personal pride is a recurring theme in country music.
While the American flag is not an icon I generally identify with, the place-based concept of fighting to defend your family, your land and your livelihood is quintessentially human – well beyond modern right and left political ideologies. This sentiment has provided the human fodder for human conflict for millennia. At a tribal/territorial level standing your ground against neighborly encroachment (or imperial invasion) is understandable. I can sympathize – I can even relate. The fact that modern rulers take advantage of these sentiments to implement strategies of military and economic command and control in the name of democracy and freedom doesn’t change the fact that the sentiment itself lies outside political ideologies of either the right or the left. Yet fightin’ for home and country is one of the few things left in which working people CAN take a justified pride.
So the funniest thing about all this is watching both liberal and conservative ideologs scrambling to find justification in music that neither one listens to or understands.
Liberals and conservatives: go figure, please.
Signed,
Closet country fan
Is it fundamentally humanist and liberal? Yes.
The attempt to categorize either country or rock by political categories misses the point. Listen to the music. Both genres are more about frustration and alienation than they are about politics.
A good portion of the reason that Okie from Muskogee gained so much popularity is because the music itself is so damned infectious that once you’ve heard it you can’t get it out of your mind – which ever side you are on – and because it’s light-hearted and funny. Even if you take it literally there’s a wry self-deprecating attitude in the use of the term “Okie” – generally a derogatory characterization. The song is about people who understand they are being looked down on as unsophisticated and square by those who thought themselves cool, sophisticated and hip. It’s not a political anthem, it’s a cultural anthem, parody or no….
Among my came-of-age in the 60's anti-Vietnam war demographic ilk it's hard to find many country fans. The unsubtle heart-on-your-sleeve story-telling style of country music is generally an embarrassment to the educated and/or cool left – hence Eric’s understandable unfamiliarity with the genre. And there's enough enthusiastic sinnin', drinkin’, fightin’, cheatin’ and leavin’ going on in these stories that I suspect the religious right will not claim county as its own either – in spite of all the religious references.
But many of these stories strike a chord with me. At the heart of country music is a deep frustration and confusion over how to respond to a world in which the idealized good ole days of our agrarian past (hard-workin’ right livelihood with a strong connection to family and/or the land) have given way to a modern society built from disconnected and interchangeable working units in pursuit of an elusive monetary standard of success. Even the songs about ramblin’ cowboys and truck drivin’ reflect an effort to find place and meaning in an increasingly fenced in 9-5 world where “settling down” really means “settling for” a life in which the working man/woman has little to no control over his time, his work, his family, or his “representative” government. It is a profound political failure of both the right and the left that virtually none of these issues are ever effectively addressed by anyone. The deck is stacked — and country fans know it at a visceral level that political operatives of all stripes are well-paid to misconstrue.
The small businesses harassed by bureaucratic pettiness and inefficiency as well as economic changes well beyond their control (and often their understanding) are perhaps the last remnants of middle class independence. Yet the right uses these enterprises as poster children for policies that actually strengthen the hand of huge corporate players and weaken the ability of small business to survive in an increasingly competitive global economic environment. Meanwhile the left seeks to mitigate rapacious corporate business practices and the resulting social fallout through a one-two punch of regulation and social programs both of which undermine the ability of the working class to achieve any kind control over their day-to-day lives. No wonder personal pride is a recurring theme in country music.
While the American flag is not an icon I generally identify with, the place-based concept of fighting to defend your family, your land and your livelihood is quintessentially human – well beyond modern right and left political ideologies. This sentiment has provided the human fodder for human conflict for millennia. At a tribal/territorial level standing your ground against neighborly encroachment (or imperial invasion) is understandable. I can sympathize – I can even relate. The fact that modern rulers take advantage of these sentiments to implement strategies of military and economic command and control in the name of democracy and freedom doesn’t change the fact that the sentiment itself lies outside political ideologies of either the right or the left. Yet fightin’ for home and country is one of the few things left in which working people CAN take a justified pride.
So the funniest thing about all this is watching both liberal and conservative ideologs scrambling to find justification in music that neither one listens to or understands.
Liberals and conservatives: go figure, please.
Signed,
Closet country fan
# posted by : Tue Jun 13, 07:10:00 PM
: Tue Jun 13, 07:10:00 PM
Closet country fan - thanx for a very thoughtful post. I have to admit that I wasn't raised with a positive view of country music. It wasn't so much about perception of non-sophistication. I was a quasi-hippie kid in a very "redneck" rural community, and I had some bad experiences which I associate with certain cultural phenomenon, including country music. It never even dawned on me that someone like Willie Nelson could be "liberal" until I reached my teens, by then having moved to a more "blue state" kind of milieu.
Even today, though I appreciate the lyrics and the people who make country music, it just doesn't do much for me, except for bluegrass and rockish country songs.
But I should relate to it. It's a cousin of blues essentially, which means plenty of whining, and as a liberal I certainly relate to the whining. :&)
Even today, though I appreciate the lyrics and the people who make country music, it just doesn't do much for me, except for bluegrass and rockish country songs.
But I should relate to it. It's a cousin of blues essentially, which means plenty of whining, and as a liberal I certainly relate to the whining. :&)
I realize that this thread is pretty much dead, but a few songs came to me last night that I think would fit on your list pretty well, so here goes:
"Little Man" - Alan Jackson
Although conservative traditionalists can certainly get behind this song, as well, its anti-corporate, anti-globalization message and mournful ode to the demise of small town businesses fits nicely with many of the things that anti-Wal-Mart crusaders and others on the left often complain about: "Now Main Street's just a set of streets/That people go 'round, but they seldom think/About the little man who built this town/Before the big money shut him down/And killed the little man." An interesting side note is that the specific businesses Jackson mentions in the song are (or were) real places in his hometown of Newnan, Georgia. This song is personal to him.
"American Dream" - Hank Williams, Jr.
Libertarianish Bocephus takes a swipe at Reagan, bashes televangelists, and questions the American rat race: "Do we really want it?/Do we really need it?/You gotta keep on grinding/Just to try to keep it/You got no time for yourself/You got more for old Jim Beam/We're goin' crazy dreamin'/The American dream."
"My Hometown" - Charlie Robison
Not really political, but definitely anti-authority, with vulgarities and even a pro-pot reference. Plus, Robison is married to a Dixie Chick (the pretty one), so that's gotta count for something. Sounds like a song Willie Nelson would love: "Well, I played ball every single fall/I could run just like the wind/I went to college like they asked me to/But they didn't ask my friends/I don't think I seen a single classroom/But I drank a lot of beer/My buddies still love to listen to me when I talk about that year."
"Change" - Sons of the Desert
Again, not a political song but one that most lefties could get into. How can you resist a song that has Betty "walkin' out of a tattoo parlor" after just having had "a little red rose put right on her derriere"? Then there's this line toward the end of the song that contains a (probably unintentional) bit of symbolism to warm a liberal's heart: "Now who of us hasn't been heading home on Friday/Sitting at some traffic light/Wondering what would happen if we hung a left/Instead of takin' that faithful old right?"
"On the Road" - Lee Roy Parnell
Another anti-authority song, celebrating the glories of escape. The first two verses deal with a "sad young wife who never had a life" and a teenager who "can't be his daddy's little man" who both call it quits and hit the road. But the kicker is the last verse: "Eddie and Jill got time to kill/The kids, they never come around/And a gold-plated watch was all he got/When the company shut his life down/So he takes out that old Airstream/They don't know where they're bound/Sixty five years and still searching/For somethin' that they never found." Sure the tree-huggers and global warming alarmists will cringe, but you can't please everybody. Maybe Pete Seeger can re-record this one so that everyone hits the road in their Birkenstocks and bicycles, or at the very least, in a Prius.
"Little Man" - Alan Jackson
Although conservative traditionalists can certainly get behind this song, as well, its anti-corporate, anti-globalization message and mournful ode to the demise of small town businesses fits nicely with many of the things that anti-Wal-Mart crusaders and others on the left often complain about: "Now Main Street's just a set of streets/That people go 'round, but they seldom think/About the little man who built this town/Before the big money shut him down/And killed the little man." An interesting side note is that the specific businesses Jackson mentions in the song are (or were) real places in his hometown of Newnan, Georgia. This song is personal to him.
"American Dream" - Hank Williams, Jr.
Libertarianish Bocephus takes a swipe at Reagan, bashes televangelists, and questions the American rat race: "Do we really want it?/Do we really need it?/You gotta keep on grinding/Just to try to keep it/You got no time for yourself/You got more for old Jim Beam/We're goin' crazy dreamin'/The American dream."
"My Hometown" - Charlie Robison
Not really political, but definitely anti-authority, with vulgarities and even a pro-pot reference. Plus, Robison is married to a Dixie Chick (the pretty one), so that's gotta count for something. Sounds like a song Willie Nelson would love: "Well, I played ball every single fall/I could run just like the wind/I went to college like they asked me to/But they didn't ask my friends/I don't think I seen a single classroom/But I drank a lot of beer/My buddies still love to listen to me when I talk about that year."
"Change" - Sons of the Desert
Again, not a political song but one that most lefties could get into. How can you resist a song that has Betty "walkin' out of a tattoo parlor" after just having had "a little red rose put right on her derriere"? Then there's this line toward the end of the song that contains a (probably unintentional) bit of symbolism to warm a liberal's heart: "Now who of us hasn't been heading home on Friday/Sitting at some traffic light/Wondering what would happen if we hung a left/Instead of takin' that faithful old right?"
"On the Road" - Lee Roy Parnell
Another anti-authority song, celebrating the glories of escape. The first two verses deal with a "sad young wife who never had a life" and a teenager who "can't be his daddy's little man" who both call it quits and hit the road. But the kicker is the last verse: "Eddie and Jill got time to kill/The kids, they never come around/And a gold-plated watch was all he got/When the company shut his life down/So he takes out that old Airstream/They don't know where they're bound/Sixty five years and still searching/For somethin' that they never found." Sure the tree-huggers and global warming alarmists will cringe, but you can't please everybody. Maybe Pete Seeger can re-record this one so that everyone hits the road in their Birkenstocks and bicycles, or at the very least, in a Prius.
Well, I think Pete Seeger's in his 90s now and retired, but it's a good song for the list. And I think your Hank Williams choice is better than mine.
Thanks for the thoughtful posts Ben!
Thanks for the thoughtful posts Ben!
One more that just hit me:
"Daddy Won't Sell the Farm" - Montgomery Gentry
Great anti-sprawl song. The lyrics read like it might be tongue-in-cheek, but if you actually heard the song, you would find that the delivery is hard, angry, and deadly serious: "His cows get loose and run right through the fast food parking lots/And Daddy gets calls from the mini-malls when they're downwind from his hogs/When his tractor backs up traffic, the reception ain't too warm/The city's growing around him, but Daddy won't sell the farm." And later: "He learned to love the woodlands, he can't stand to do them harm/There's concrete all around him, but Daddy won't sell the farm." Some lefties (and crunchy cons) might have to pretend that Daddy is an organic farmer for the local co-op to make this one palatable, but I still think it qualifies.
"Daddy Won't Sell the Farm" - Montgomery Gentry
Great anti-sprawl song. The lyrics read like it might be tongue-in-cheek, but if you actually heard the song, you would find that the delivery is hard, angry, and deadly serious: "His cows get loose and run right through the fast food parking lots/And Daddy gets calls from the mini-malls when they're downwind from his hogs/When his tractor backs up traffic, the reception ain't too warm/The city's growing around him, but Daddy won't sell the farm." And later: "He learned to love the woodlands, he can't stand to do them harm/There's concrete all around him, but Daddy won't sell the farm." Some lefties (and crunchy cons) might have to pretend that Daddy is an organic farmer for the local co-op to make this one palatable, but I still think it qualifies.
John Miller is an idiot. Why the hell would he want someone who knows nothing about it to make such a list. Celebrate stupididity!
# posted by : Wed Jun 14, 09:52:00 AM
: Wed Jun 14, 09:52:00 AM
Well, maybe because I'm the only one doing it. I tried to get some others with more knowledge to put it together, but nobody stepped up.
Do it yourself if you're not happy with it. Sheesh!
Do it yourself if you're not happy with it. Sheesh!
Um... I think Eric sort of volunteered for the fun of it. And last I checked, John Miller didn't have dictatorial powers to order him to stop.
Either way, get a grip. But - and I am only saying that because I care - there's a lot of decaffeinated brands on the market that are just as tasty as the real thing.
Either way, get a grip. But - and I am only saying that because I care - there's a lot of decaffeinated brands on the market that are just as tasty as the real thing.
Some commenter badly missed the point of "He Thinks He'll Keep Her." It's about a lousy, no-good, POS husband.
The lyrics quoted from "High Cotton Alabama" square perfectly with this list. They describe people taking time on the Sabbath to praise that liberal paragon, Jesus Christ.
Anyone who says otherwise is itching to get taken to Fist City.
The lyrics quoted from "High Cotton Alabama" square perfectly with this list. They describe people taking time on the Sabbath to praise that liberal paragon, Jesus Christ.
Anyone who says otherwise is itching to get taken to Fist City.
Deceiver:
Please point me to the portion of the "He Thinks He'll Keep Her" lyrics where it is made clear that the husband is a POS. Not much is really said about the guy other than the fact that he married this woman and then she dumped him.
Please point me to the portion of the "He Thinks He'll Keep Her" lyrics where it is made clear that the husband is a POS. Not much is really said about the guy other than the fact that he married this woman and then she dumped him.
Here are the lyrics for both of your convenience.
She makes his coffee, she makes his bed
She does the laundry, she keeps him fed
When she was twenty-one she wore her mother's lace
She said "forever" with a smile upon her face
She does the car-pool, she PTAs
Doctors and dentists, she drives all day
When she was twenty-nine she delivered number three
And every Christmas card showed a perfect family
Everything runs right on time, years of practice and design
Spit and polish till it shines. He thinks he'll keep her
Everything is so benign, safest place you'll ever find
God forbid you change your mind. He thinks he'll keep her
She packs his suitcase, she sits and waits
With no expression upon her face
When she was thirty-six she met him at their door
She said I'm sorry, I don't love you anymore
Everything runs right on time, years of practice and design
Spit and polish till it shines. He thinks he'll keep her
Everything is so benign, safest place you'll ever find
God forbid you change your mind. He thinks he'll keep her
For fifteen years she had a job and not one raise in pay
Now she's in the typing pool at minimum wage
Everything runs right on time, years of practice and design
Spit and polish till it shines. He thinks he'll keep her
Everything is so benign, safest place you'll ever find
At least until you change your mind. He thinks he'll keep her
She makes his coffee, she makes his bed
She does the laundry, she keeps him fed
When she was twenty-one she wore her mother's lace
She said "forever" with a smile upon her face
She does the car-pool, she PTAs
Doctors and dentists, she drives all day
When she was twenty-nine she delivered number three
And every Christmas card showed a perfect family
Everything runs right on time, years of practice and design
Spit and polish till it shines. He thinks he'll keep her
Everything is so benign, safest place you'll ever find
God forbid you change your mind. He thinks he'll keep her
She packs his suitcase, she sits and waits
With no expression upon her face
When she was thirty-six she met him at their door
She said I'm sorry, I don't love you anymore
Everything runs right on time, years of practice and design
Spit and polish till it shines. He thinks he'll keep her
Everything is so benign, safest place you'll ever find
God forbid you change your mind. He thinks he'll keep her
For fifteen years she had a job and not one raise in pay
Now she's in the typing pool at minimum wage
Everything runs right on time, years of practice and design
Spit and polish till it shines. He thinks he'll keep her
Everything is so benign, safest place you'll ever find
At least until you change your mind. He thinks he'll keep her
Thanks, but I knew the words by heart. I have the CD, and even though the words suck, the music rocks.
As for the lyrics, one can assume anything one wants (e.g., the guy was a wife-beater), but that's not what the lyrics say.
Rather, it is a story of a young woman who gets married, blissfully accepting her mother's "fate" as a housewife and mom in a "benign," "safe," but (supposedly) mundane traditional marriage. Fifteen years later (and after a snarky remark about no pay raises), she decides that her "forever" commitment isn't really that important and she dumps the guy and leaves her kids with a broken home.
This is a fine song for those who take the traditional feminist view that wives -- especially housewives and stay-at-home moms -- are virtual slaves, unable to fulfill their potential or live "real" lives. But in a healthy marriage, it's all about dividing work -- the husband may do the work that earns the income, but it is their money. The work the wife does is no less important, and in many ways, is more important.
I have always thought this song called for a rebuttal version. Carpenter starts off by saying: "She makes his coffee, she makes his bed/She does the laundry, she keeps him fed." Fine. What about a response song that says: "He buys her groceries, he keeps her clothed/Pays for vacations, and the car she drove." Unfair? Absolutely -- but no more unfair than Carpenter's warped take on things.
As for the lyrics, one can assume anything one wants (e.g., the guy was a wife-beater), but that's not what the lyrics say.
Rather, it is a story of a young woman who gets married, blissfully accepting her mother's "fate" as a housewife and mom in a "benign," "safe," but (supposedly) mundane traditional marriage. Fifteen years later (and after a snarky remark about no pay raises), she decides that her "forever" commitment isn't really that important and she dumps the guy and leaves her kids with a broken home.
This is a fine song for those who take the traditional feminist view that wives -- especially housewives and stay-at-home moms -- are virtual slaves, unable to fulfill their potential or live "real" lives. But in a healthy marriage, it's all about dividing work -- the husband may do the work that earns the income, but it is their money. The work the wife does is no less important, and in many ways, is more important.
I have always thought this song called for a rebuttal version. Carpenter starts off by saying: "She makes his coffee, she makes his bed/She does the laundry, she keeps him fed." Fine. What about a response song that says: "He buys her groceries, he keeps her clothed/Pays for vacations, and the car she drove." Unfair? Absolutely -- but no more unfair than Carpenter's warped take on things.
Well, that's of course assuming she doesn't work as well.
I remember an old perfume commercial from the 70s:
"I can bring home the bacon
Fry it up in a pan
And never, never let you forget you're a man
cause I'm a wooooomaaaaan...."
It ought to have been an advertisement for speed.
I remember an old perfume commercial from the 70s:
"I can bring home the bacon
Fry it up in a pan
And never, never let you forget you're a man
cause I'm a wooooomaaaaan...."
It ought to have been an advertisement for speed.
Well, you can pretty much assume the woman in the song doesn't work outside the home simply from the shear volume of stuff she does. Women who work for pay -- even ones on speed -- can't do all that other stuff, too. But the clincher is Carpenter's snarky line: "For fifteen years she had a job and not one raise in pay/Now she's in the typing pool at minimum wage." The not-to-subtle point is that this woman went from earning "nothing" for fifteen years to a big raise at minimum wage.
There was a recent article from one of the careers websites that valued the duties of the typical housewife at about 160 thousand per year.
Another fact is that the life expectancy of men increases with marrieage while that of women decreases. Men generally get the better deal out of marriage, but their dicks often won't let them acknowledge that.
Another fact is that the life expectancy of men increases with marrieage while that of women decreases. Men generally get the better deal out of marriage, but their dicks often won't let them acknowledge that.
# posted by : Sat Jun 17, 12:00:00 AM
: Sat Jun 17, 12:00:00 AM
That study to which you refer was an utter crock, breaking down housewifing duties into various subcomponents and awarding the wife a certain amount of money for things like being the "household CEO." As various critics pointed out, this analysis gave the husbands no such credit for the at-home work they did. Neither did the study dock the wife's "salary" for things like room and board and the work the husband did around the house (e.g., cutting the grass, basic maintenance, etc.).
As for men getting the better deal out of marriage, that's also a crock. The single biggest predictor of female poverty is whether or not a woman is married, with single women being much poorer on average. Men and women both benefit from marriage, but the biggest winners are children and society as a whole.
As for men getting the better deal out of marriage, that's also a crock. The single biggest predictor of female poverty is whether or not a woman is married, with single women being much poorer on average. Men and women both benefit from marriage, but the biggest winners are children and society as a whole.
I'm not familiar with the details of the study, though I can say that if my job was broken down into subcomponents and temps hired for each function, my work would probably be valued at a higher rate than my pay. As employees we offer a package deal, so it should probably be the same with regard to housewives.
My question is whether the sex is factored as a commodity, and the value of childbirth as determined by the market value of surrogate motherhood. Yes, men also offer lovemaking to the relationship, but as any pimp could tell you the market value of female sex is considerably higher.
ben - certainly women get the economic benefit in most marriages, unless perhaps we consider opportunity costs since the woman often surrenders a career for the marriage. I would also caution re the single mother poverty stats as correllation is not necessarily causation. In other words, did the break-up of the marriage, or lack of marriage cause the poverty, or did the poverty cause the lack of marriage?
I have to admit that I find the life shortening/extension argument compelling, assuming the study is valid. I would question the study though because my understanding is that childbirth correllates with extended female lifespans rather than shorter.
My question is whether the sex is factored as a commodity, and the value of childbirth as determined by the market value of surrogate motherhood. Yes, men also offer lovemaking to the relationship, but as any pimp could tell you the market value of female sex is considerably higher.
ben - certainly women get the economic benefit in most marriages, unless perhaps we consider opportunity costs since the woman often surrenders a career for the marriage. I would also caution re the single mother poverty stats as correllation is not necessarily causation. In other words, did the break-up of the marriage, or lack of marriage cause the poverty, or did the poverty cause the lack of marriage?
I have to admit that I find the life shortening/extension argument compelling, assuming the study is valid. I would question the study though because my understanding is that childbirth correllates with extended female lifespans rather than shorter.
Eric,
I don't think the study's authors were crass enough to add "whore" to the list of job titles a housewife has. At least I hope they weren't that crass.
You said the key words: "market value." The market value of housewifery is probably in the $50-$60k range, I would guess, including the various sources of imputed income (room, board, etc.). But I have a problem with the very idea of looking at this issue in that way. Raising one's kids to be responsible adults and good citizens is simply priceless.
As for your last comments, the studies I have seen are pretty clear: single-parenting, either through divorce or not, is a leading cause of poverty. Statistics show us that among Americans who finish high school, delay having kids until they are married, and then stay married, poverty is almost non-existent in this country.
This makes perfectly logical sense when you think of it. Keeping two households is more expensive than keeping one. Also, parenting becomes more expensive when there's only one adult to do everything: There are mandatory daycare costs, "convenience fees" (e.g., more eating out because the mom does not have time to cook), and lost pay when the kids are sick or when the parent has to turn down overtime.
Quoting from the new study, Why Marriage Matters, Second Edition: 26 Conclusions from the Social Sciences:
"Research has consistently shown that both divorce and unmarried childbearing increase the economic vulnerability of both children and mothers. The effects of family structure on poverty remain powerful, even after controlling for race and family background. Changes in family structure are an important cause of new entries into poverty (although a decline in the earnings of the household head is the single most important cause). Child poverty rates are high in part because of the growth of single-parent families. In fact, some studies indicate that all of the increase in child poverty since the 1970s can be attributed to increases in single-parenthood due to divorce and nonmarital childbearing. When parents fail to marry and stay married, children are more likely to experience deep and persistent poverty, even after controlling for race and family background. The majority of children who grow up outside of intact married families experience at least one year of dire poverty (family incomes less than half the official poverty threshold). Divorce as well as unmarried childbearing plays a role: Between one-fifth and one-third of divorcing women end up in poverty following their divorce. "
I don't think the study's authors were crass enough to add "whore" to the list of job titles a housewife has. At least I hope they weren't that crass.
You said the key words: "market value." The market value of housewifery is probably in the $50-$60k range, I would guess, including the various sources of imputed income (room, board, etc.). But I have a problem with the very idea of looking at this issue in that way. Raising one's kids to be responsible adults and good citizens is simply priceless.
As for your last comments, the studies I have seen are pretty clear: single-parenting, either through divorce or not, is a leading cause of poverty. Statistics show us that among Americans who finish high school, delay having kids until they are married, and then stay married, poverty is almost non-existent in this country.
This makes perfectly logical sense when you think of it. Keeping two households is more expensive than keeping one. Also, parenting becomes more expensive when there's only one adult to do everything: There are mandatory daycare costs, "convenience fees" (e.g., more eating out because the mom does not have time to cook), and lost pay when the kids are sick or when the parent has to turn down overtime.
Quoting from the new study, Why Marriage Matters, Second Edition: 26 Conclusions from the Social Sciences:
"Research has consistently shown that both divorce and unmarried childbearing increase the economic vulnerability of both children and mothers. The effects of family structure on poverty remain powerful, even after controlling for race and family background. Changes in family structure are an important cause of new entries into poverty (although a decline in the earnings of the household head is the single most important cause). Child poverty rates are high in part because of the growth of single-parent families. In fact, some studies indicate that all of the increase in child poverty since the 1970s can be attributed to increases in single-parenthood due to divorce and nonmarital childbearing. When parents fail to marry and stay married, children are more likely to experience deep and persistent poverty, even after controlling for race and family background. The majority of children who grow up outside of intact married families experience at least one year of dire poverty (family incomes less than half the official poverty threshold). Divorce as well as unmarried childbearing plays a role: Between one-fifth and one-third of divorcing women end up in poverty following their divorce. "
Well, crass maybe, but if we're looking for an economic analysis it should be objective. Fact is, the market forces would allow most women to charge for sex and most men would have to pay for it. There are several reasons for this, but it's a pretty undeniable fact. So hey, I'm just suggesting that with all the divorces and upheaval, maybe the socialistic institution of marriage is becoming anachronistic. Why not turn the matter over to the free market - a win-win situation? Capitalism of necessity creates certain divisions of labor. A man can hire different women for each function - cooking, sex, etc.
We need to find good sound business solutions to our problems.
More seriously, I'm not denying that most single parent women have it harder than most married women. However, again, I would caution the over-dependence on these studies. I am familiar with them, and I have yet to see one that attempts to distinguish between correllation and causation in anything by subjective language. These studies are often backed by an agenda, and not necessarily an evil agenda. It does impact their objectivity in both gathering the data and interpreting it.
Again, does single parenting cause poverty or does poverty cause single parenting? Another correlation is the tendency to have teen sex without contraceptive protection among the poor. I would like to know how many divorced mothers end up in poverty when the marriage exists in a middle to upper class milieu (your study seems to indicate that it's higher with divorce, but how high?), and what the correlation is to divorce laws (community property vs. fault based divorce), effectiveness among states in enforcing support from the father, etc.
And getting back to the benefits of marriage, how many women without children divorce and fall into poverty, and for how long? Should we regard the benefit to children solely the benefit of the mother?
Certainly I agree that it's much easier to raise children with 2 parents. It'd be even easier with 3 or 4.
We need to find good sound business solutions to our problems.
More seriously, I'm not denying that most single parent women have it harder than most married women. However, again, I would caution the over-dependence on these studies. I am familiar with them, and I have yet to see one that attempts to distinguish between correllation and causation in anything by subjective language. These studies are often backed by an agenda, and not necessarily an evil agenda. It does impact their objectivity in both gathering the data and interpreting it.
Again, does single parenting cause poverty or does poverty cause single parenting? Another correlation is the tendency to have teen sex without contraceptive protection among the poor. I would like to know how many divorced mothers end up in poverty when the marriage exists in a middle to upper class milieu (your study seems to indicate that it's higher with divorce, but how high?), and what the correlation is to divorce laws (community property vs. fault based divorce), effectiveness among states in enforcing support from the father, etc.
And getting back to the benefits of marriage, how many women without children divorce and fall into poverty, and for how long? Should we regard the benefit to children solely the benefit of the mother?
Certainly I agree that it's much easier to raise children with 2 parents. It'd be even easier with 3 or 4.
When such studies verify common sense and anecdotal evidence, it's not such a big jump to believe them. Yes, it is true that poor girls tend to have more kids outside of marriage, and yes, this does tend to be a causal agent in much of the persistent poverty among such women and their children. But the same factors also lead to poverty among lower-class divorcees. You can enforce the alimony and child support requirements all you want, but you can't get blood from a turnip -- if the ex-husband is barely scraping by, no court is going to be able to force him to pay more than a minimal amount.
My family is pretty much average middle class, but if my wife and I divorced, the standards of living for all of us (including the kids) would go down tremendously -- Two households are more expensive than one. Our fortunes would probably not improve until we both were remarried. I doubt that many middle class women end up impoverished after divorce, except in extreme circumstances (e.g., she racks up major debt after the split, the ex-husband skips the country and stops paying alimony or dies, etc.). But I would guess that many upper middle class divorced women become more mid-middle class, lower middle class women become "working class," and many "working class" women become downright poor. While divorce hits men in the wallet, too, it's not hard to imagine why it hits women harder -- for instance, women usually (and usually by choice) take the larger responsibility for the kids after the split, thus limiting their career possibilities.
I disagree strongly that it would be easier to raise kids with 3 or 4 parents -- it's hard enough for two people connected through a (hopefully) lifetime romantic commitment to get on the same page. Kids were not meant to be raised by committee.
My family is pretty much average middle class, but if my wife and I divorced, the standards of living for all of us (including the kids) would go down tremendously -- Two households are more expensive than one. Our fortunes would probably not improve until we both were remarried. I doubt that many middle class women end up impoverished after divorce, except in extreme circumstances (e.g., she racks up major debt after the split, the ex-husband skips the country and stops paying alimony or dies, etc.). But I would guess that many upper middle class divorced women become more mid-middle class, lower middle class women become "working class," and many "working class" women become downright poor. While divorce hits men in the wallet, too, it's not hard to imagine why it hits women harder -- for instance, women usually (and usually by choice) take the larger responsibility for the kids after the split, thus limiting their career possibilities.
I disagree strongly that it would be easier to raise kids with 3 or 4 parents -- it's hard enough for two people connected through a (hopefully) lifetime romantic commitment to get on the same page. Kids were not meant to be raised by committee.
"Common sense" is a very dangerous concept in science. Certainly lower class divorces aggravate poverty, but if the husband is barely scraping by on his own then it would seem the family was in poverty to begin with.
If we divorced it would also be economically hard on everybody, certainly in the short run. But none of us would be impoverished, since my wife does have resources she can fall back on including some education and skills.
As for 3 or 4 people, it would certainly be easier in my family, since my wife does have to work. We don't have the hours in the day to get everything done. In fact, I suspect that the breakdown of the extended family is responsible for more hardship than the breakdown of the nuclear family, because the extended family is almost non-existent.
If we divorced it would also be economically hard on everybody, certainly in the short run. But none of us would be impoverished, since my wife does have resources she can fall back on including some education and skills.
As for 3 or 4 people, it would certainly be easier in my family, since my wife does have to work. We don't have the hours in the day to get everything done. In fact, I suspect that the breakdown of the extended family is responsible for more hardship than the breakdown of the nuclear family, because the extended family is almost non-existent.
"Common sense" may be "dangerous," but it should still be considered until proved false. I would wager that such "common sense" proves accurate more times than not. Humans and human civilization are very complex things, not easily measured and studied. Back in the 70s, social scientists assured us that divorce was, if anything, good for kids, not only because living in "bad homes" was bad for them, but also because there were benefits to the artificial extended families that remarriage of the parents caused. Common sense said that was bunk, and it has since been proven so.
On your second point, when I said "barely scraping by," I meant working class, not poor. It's easy to see where a family that's making it -- albeit barely -- could be pushed over the edge by the costs, direct and indirect, of divorce.
I'm not really sure about how much the "breakdown" of the extended family has changed things. In many parts of the country, the extended family is still very much intact. It certainly was where I grew up. Also, there have been many times in the past where the extended family has also not always been present -- American pioneer days, for instance. After the age of six, Laura Ingalls had almost no contact with her extended family.
But even when the extended family is nearby, it only works if it is clear that parents are ultimately in charge of their own children. If grandparents, et. al. try to usurp that responsibility, things get out of whack fast. So even in situations where the extended family is evident, the nuclear family is still crucial to the wellbeing and proper raising of children. Having grandparents nearby is nice, but does not do much for the child whose parents are divorced.
On your second point, when I said "barely scraping by," I meant working class, not poor. It's easy to see where a family that's making it -- albeit barely -- could be pushed over the edge by the costs, direct and indirect, of divorce.
I'm not really sure about how much the "breakdown" of the extended family has changed things. In many parts of the country, the extended family is still very much intact. It certainly was where I grew up. Also, there have been many times in the past where the extended family has also not always been present -- American pioneer days, for instance. After the age of six, Laura Ingalls had almost no contact with her extended family.
But even when the extended family is nearby, it only works if it is clear that parents are ultimately in charge of their own children. If grandparents, et. al. try to usurp that responsibility, things get out of whack fast. So even in situations where the extended family is evident, the nuclear family is still crucial to the wellbeing and proper raising of children. Having grandparents nearby is nice, but does not do much for the child whose parents are divorced.
Can't agree with you regarding "common sense" and the burden of proof, given the subjectivity of the concept ESPECIALLY when social issues of great dispute are involved, and precisely because human behavior is so difficult to study as you point out.
As to whether divorce is good or bad for kids, it depends on the situation. Obviously amputation is hardly a desired procedure, but at times it is best for the patient. Temporary poverty may be better than abuse, perhaps in some instances even permanent poverty depending on the extremity of the abuse. Common sense generalizes.
Certainly divorce can cause serious financial problems. I'm not disputing that. But again, to look at the broader numbers, you have to consider the chicken and egg question, because I suspect that in the vast number of divorces the parents do in fact plan for the child's welfare regardless of how they feel about each other. And if they can't manage that, then the marriage isn't doing much for them anyway.
Re the extended family, the economy requires much more mobility now. I don't have stats, but the grandparents live outside of driving range at much higher rates than 50 years ago, I'm sure.
Re usurping grandparents, I think that's a rare situation mostly in extreme situations where again, the normal rules may not be applicable. I mean, other than just the usual "meddling mother-in-law" family politics, but I'm assuming that's not what you're talking about.
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As to whether divorce is good or bad for kids, it depends on the situation. Obviously amputation is hardly a desired procedure, but at times it is best for the patient. Temporary poverty may be better than abuse, perhaps in some instances even permanent poverty depending on the extremity of the abuse. Common sense generalizes.
Certainly divorce can cause serious financial problems. I'm not disputing that. But again, to look at the broader numbers, you have to consider the chicken and egg question, because I suspect that in the vast number of divorces the parents do in fact plan for the child's welfare regardless of how they feel about each other. And if they can't manage that, then the marriage isn't doing much for them anyway.
Re the extended family, the economy requires much more mobility now. I don't have stats, but the grandparents live outside of driving range at much higher rates than 50 years ago, I'm sure.
Re usurping grandparents, I think that's a rare situation mostly in extreme situations where again, the normal rules may not be applicable. I mean, other than just the usual "meddling mother-in-law" family politics, but I'm assuming that's not what you're talking about.
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