Thursday, December 27, 2007

 

Death in Pakistan

Benazir Bhutto killed at 54.

Addendum: Pakistan in chaos.
Bhutto's death marked yet another grim chapter in Pakistan's bloodstained history, 28 years after her father, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, another ex-prime minister, was hanged by a military dictatorship in the same northern city where she was killed.
Creepy.

Second addendum: Here's some history and analysis from Aziz Huq at the Nation.

Comments:
That really pisses me off. I'll admit to needing a program to tell who the players are over there, but I've had a good impression of that gal since way back when after I saw her interviewed on 60 Minutes(?). For some reason I couldn't help but like her.

I had a feeling someone was going to off her, and I don't think it was Musharraf(sic?).
 
The Religion of Peace strikes again!
 
Intolerance and hatred is not new. It certainly is common here in Humboldt.

This is a tragedy.
 
This won't help the peace process. (What peace process?)
 
i always admired and respected her,and i knew this would happen,,,may she rest in peace
 
First, like Fred, I don’t have the “Play Book” for the Middle east situation. But, I secretly think that it only has two words in it anyway, those words would be “chaos“ and "insanity".

Unlike most people that read this blog, I agree with the “War” that is going on in the Middle-East. It is a war that may never end, but like the man said; “The price of freedom (peace) is ETERNAL vigilance.” I think that the Free World, if it is ever able to bring peace for itself, will have to bring peace to the Middle-East first.

I am truly saddened to see that there are people in this world that think that the path to victory is to blow themselves, and innocent people around them to bloody bits. I’m am especially sorry to hear of the death of Benazir Bhutto. Her death should be a lesson to us all, as to why the insanity has to stop. And believe me when I tell you that only the Free World can bring peace.

“Intolerance and hatred is not new. It certainly is common here in Humboldt.”

I beg to differ, Humboldt has one of the most peaceful and tolerant people anywhere… With a few remarkable exceptions, that usually has something to do with drugs. You must have different friends than I do.
 
Ernie said "First, like Fred, I don’t have the 'Play Book' for the Middle east situation. But, I secretly think that it only has two words in it anyway, those words would be 'chaos' and 'insanity'".

Not bad Ernie, but the 'chaos' and 'insanity' stem from just one word. That word is Islam. An Islamic fundamentalist killed Ms. Bhutto. We know this because he blew himself up after the murder so that he could get his virgins in paradise.
 
...that usually has something to do with drugs

Generalities like that one are something that I cannot tolerate. There's no supporting information. Same goes for generalities like, "Humboldt has one of the most peaceful and tolerant people anywhere". The appeal is to the emotions, asking for approval without examination or reason.
 
An interesting perspective from Trotskyist leader Alan Woods. As always, his writing style is painful for me, because it kind of reminds me of the way I used to write, but I was glad to see a strong condemnation of the killing from a voice on the Left.

Trotskyist/neocon/alcoholic/athiest Christopher Hitchens is appalled by the killing as well, but he seems a little less sympathetic. Apparently not such a big fan of Bhutto.
 
Factory Girl, Get your head out of the sand, or wherever it is, if you have your eyes open that would be of all of the "supporting information" that you should need.

Where do you live that you don't know about Humboldt's sad but rampant drug problem?

What you really couldn't tolerate would be the thousands of references that I could use to prove my point. We have all lost to many friends to drugs.
 
The suicide attacker is the main weapon being used in the war on the west and its values. It seems clear that we have not achieved any thing near a total defense against this weapon despite the expenditures of hundreds of billions of dollars and the sacrifice of many of our own values in the fight.

The only bright idea I can come up with is to
 
Ernie I'd agree with your premise if it wasn't for the fact that the coverup of Native American killings, particularly Larabee Creek,still continue to haunt this place.And the case has never been closed as to whom was exactly was involved in the Indian Island massacre.The failure for a community to reach some sort of closure on this is a big disappointment and I am as big a part to blame as anyone.
But I think it's safe to say that something like that may never happen again.We have to be vigilant against it when if it does.
 
Konkler WTF are you smoking ? You dipping your herb in something ?
 
Mresquan

I agree with you wholeheartedly, (when it comes to history), the north coast was one of the most brutal of anywhere to the Indian people. The north coast was also one of the first groups of people to set aside their hatred. Other States and Counties persisted in discrimination long past the north coast “Vendetta”. Mendocino County has even a deeper history of brutality to the Indian people. For instance the “Massacre of Bloody Run Creek” near Covelo, and the outright hunting of the Indian people by “Capt. Jarboe’s Eel River Rangers”.

I am proud to ay that my ancestors did all that they could to feed and protect the Indians in the Laytonville area, all you had to do back then was claim ownership of them, but then if they got into any kind of trouble, the “owner” was included in any kind of retribution. So most people where reluctant to “own” the Indian People. My folks would feed them, and hide them, otherwise they were on their own. Do I feel that the Indians owe me any kind of a debt of gratitude, hell no! And, the only thing that I feel that any of us owe the Indians today is fairness and equality. I don’t feel that we owe anyone anything beyond that.

Getting back to the Middle-East, I see some of the same feelings that we had in history; “the only good Indian is a dead Indian”. I hope that we don’t get to the point of thinking that all of Islam is our enemy, and set out to kill them all, as “we” did in the Crusades. You do remember how the Crusades turned out, don’t you?

I think that we should study history with-in it’s context, and leave out all of the emotion, or we will be on the path of another genocide. What is going on in Iraq right now is exactly how the situation should be treated; Protect the innocent and kill the guilty!

Again; “The price of freedom is eternal vigilance”.
 
Earnie, I'm sorry, but even though you and your friends nod in numbed-brain agreement to platitudes like, "Humboldt has one of the most peaceful and tolerant people anywhere" --it doesn't make it so. Don't offer me the same brand of rose tinted glasses that you wear, show me some proof.
 
Factory Girl: Tell us this is a joke.

Ernie, Pakistan is not in the Middle East.
 
Humboldt Country racism and intolerence is here, now and not very hidden. And whether it is shown in disrespect to the homeless, people of color, sexual orientation, etc. you only have to scratch the surface to find it.

Ernie: While what your family did was admirable, you need to remove those rose colored glasses and see what is really going on around you. You are a huge supporter of Estelle and one of her main people. You can not tell me that the "gay" issue won't be raised, especially if she looks like a strong contender. Then we'll see how tolerant your community really has become.
 
Factory Girl.

Oh! I though you wanted proof that we have a drug problem here.

Proof that we are tolerant; We put up with you don't we?

I'll give you a less flip answer later. I think that it will be quite easy to prove even to the hardest heart.
Again; “The price of freedom is eternal vigilance”.

"Ernie, Pakistan is not in the Middle East."
Well, it's a whole lot closer to the Middle East than anywhere else in Political Philosophy, and I’ve noticed lately that it is becoming indistinguishable!

Anon, Re Estelle:
“You can not tell me that the "gay" issue won't be raised, especially if she looks like a strong contender. Then we'll see how tolerant your community really has become.”

I hope you are right, that the issue does come up, as I'm sure we all know that it will. If I can deal with it, I’m sure most other people can. Maybe this is one way that we can prove to the world that we are peaceful people. I know both Estelle and her partner, and they are very private people that are not about to push themselves or their choice of mates on anyone, and I would imagine, especially not you.
 
I guess fred and I are going to have to get a rule book.

The middle-East is well with-in the boundries of this discussion for all intents and purposses. Check map on the lower right.
 
This is a tragedy.
 
The war in the Middle East that may go on for ever is not about peace. It is about an imbalance of power in this country that rewards the most powerful corporations while leaving the individual at risk, and an imbalance of military power that the industrial West holds over developing nations. It is about profit. Eternal vigilance is not the American occupation of Iraq or the chaos of the civil war that came of it. No security, no mater how technically sophisticated can protect against a determined terrorist with a bomb strapped to his body - one only needs to look at Israel, Iraq and Afghanistan. The Bush administration orchestrated Bhutto's return to Pakistan, but regardless of the vast amount of money we have sent to that country in the name of security this assassination is no surprise. It has only been a few weeks since the last such attempt on her life killed one hundred people. For CNN to claim "the world is in shock" sensationalizes this senseless murder of Bhutto and at least fifteen others while ignoring the manipulative power of the Bush administration and it's failed foreign policy. While the industrialized West straddles the world like some powerful Atlas, in the end it may find that it's people have been left exposed to a vengeful third world. Freedom is worth fighting for, but, shouldn't be used as a sales pitch for something else.
 
Aha! The Bhutto assasination was America's fault.
 
When Benazir Bhutto returned to Pakistan in October three million of that Countries' downtrodden turned out to welcome home the exiled leader of the Pakistan Peoples' Party. The ruling elite stayed home. It is said that elements of the Taliban had infiltrated Pakistan's intelligence and military. In truth the CIA worked side by side with all three during the war between Afghanistan and the Soviet Union. Can anyone possibly believe that empowering the PPP would work in favor of globalization and the tapping of a cheap foreign labor market? The Bush administration only gives lip service in support of democracy and no support of populist movements. Aha! G.W. aint no socialist.
 
Ernie: I realize that your roots go back to the original white people in this area and you are convinced that they did not participate in any of the injustice done to the Indians, but how do you justify their taking of the land that these Indians lived on? I also don’t go along with sacrificing our soldiers lives in a civil war in Iraq. Their religious whackos should have the same freedom of religion that our religious whackos do. How would you feel about having a kid fighting over there? For what?
 
Bush had her "Wellstoned".
 
"It is said that elements of the Taliban had infiltrated Pakistan's intelligence and military. In truth the CIA worked side by side with all three during the war between Afghanistan and the Soviet Union..."

Spare us the "it is said," and the "In truth..."

The truth is, you don't have a single source. You are blowing hot air. Why don't you just admit that you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to Pakistan?
 
The source for said infiltration was CNN during it's continuous breaking news coverage of Bhutto's assassination throughout the day. The ISI shares intel with the CIA. The PPP is now a leaderless party. Many of it's members now blame Musharraf's government for her death. They believe Musharraf did to little to protect Bhutto or that his government carried out the assassination. Many of Musharraf's own supporters blame the government for lax security. The PPP is the largest political party in Pakistan. CNN had a news doc tonight about Pakistan as a hot bed of Arab funded terrorism. Musharraf has been our most important ally in the American war against terrorism. As our number one ally in that war and the fact that Pakistan has nukes and a military infiltrated by our Taliban enemy as well as soldiers and generals not entirely down with the American war on terrorism plus high tension over a border issue with nuke empowered India, our eternal vigilance has a real possibility of turning up a nuclear exchange or a strategic mission to take out Pakistan's nukes.
 
American flags are burned at PPP demonstrations in protest of Musharraf serving American interests.
 
Looking at the BBC map of the assasination, It may be that the shooter and the bomb were two separate events. She was shot because she stood up in the SUV to greet the crowd. It seems to me that there were probably several arme assasins waiting and the bomb set to finish the job if she had not exposed herself. This may have been a carefully planned and executed operation. We assume suicide bombers in these situations but it is likely that there were many players. It would be interesting to know how it happened that she chose to stand in the car when she was in a situation which was similar to the previous attempt on her life. We may never know the truth, but this may not have been an Al-Quaida act.
 
but I was glad to see a strong condemnation of the killing from a voice on the Left.

I certainly hope to see more, especially as I'm not ruling out the Pakistani government. They hated her guts. But it would be a stupid move on their part.
 
“but how do you justify their taking of the land that these Indians lived on? “

I don’t. I can’t. What does that change? But, I don’t carry the Guilt of my Ancestors. I can no more change what happened to the Indians than I can justify the Crusades, the Inquisition, or the Rape of Nanking.
Do I try to treat the Indian people that I know today fairly? Hell yes! Do I care that they are my friends? Hell yes! For all that I know one of their ancestors killed one of mine. Should I hold that against the Indians that are my friends today? Hell no. What are you trying to say? Where does the thinking that we should feel guilty forever over something that can’t be changed come from? Isn’t that one of the classic symptoms of insanity?

“Their religious whackos should have the same freedom of religion that our religious whackos do.”

Not when their religious wackos fly planes into our buildings! Don’t bother, I know, different county, but same religion, and this discussion was about religion wasn’t it?

“How would you feel about having a kid fighting over there?”

Fortunately I don’t have a kid fighting over there. But if I did, I would be extremely proud of him/her and would be terrified for his/her safety. Have you talked to any of the parents that have kids fighting over there? Or better yet, have you talked to any of the kids that are fighting over there? What do they think?

“ For what?” Well, the info is out there, and if you haven’t seen it you should look harder.

I like peace more than most.

I also like apple pie, ice cream, and Mom. But, none of those things “just happen” without any help.
 
Well said, Ernie.
Mresquan - have you read lErnie's post on that topic? (We can’t judge what happened then by who we are now.)
 
Hmm,the link you've posted here Rose isn't working.I'll try Eric's sidebar.
 
Anon 4:23 said: "The war in the Middle East that may go on for ever is not about peace. It is about an imbalance of power in this country that rewards the most powerful corporations while leaving the individual at risk, and an imbalance of military power that the industrial West holds over developing nations. It is about profit."

The foregoing statement is so ignorant as to be frightening.
 
Hey, it's based on a CNN story!

(But who REALLY owns CNN...??)
 
anon8:58am said "and an imbalance of military power that the industrial West holds over developing nations. It is about profit."

Well that's what led to the U.S. government driven creation of Al-Qaeda,which is whom Pakistani officials are now blaming for the act.
 
Ernie, thank you for the link to the map. The G8 does consider Pakistan to be in the "greater middle east," along with Iran. I had always defined the middle east according to Arabic culture, and neither Iran nor Pakistan are Arabic by any definition. We certainly don't include India in the middle east, and Pakistan was once part of India.
 
Interesting that Bush orchestrated Bhutto's return to Pakistan but didn't provide security. Bhutto knew that the election would be rigged, but did G.W.'s bidding any way. Bhutto's father was framed and hanged in a U.S. backed coup. While holding the reins of power in Pakistan, Benazir Bhutto or possibly her husband directed the Pakistan army to assassinate one of her brothers. Bhutto and her husband went into exile after she and her husband were accused of skimming $1.5 billion from the government of Pakistan. The power in Pakistan is it's army and the next American puppet will likely come from within it's ranks as history tends to repeat itself over there every eight to ten years as democratic movements tend to look unfavorably upon leaders doing the bidding of American Presidents. Whether Pervez Mushrraf can overcome current popular opposition to his Presidency will depend upon maintaining support from the Pakistan Army.
 
When in doubt, cook up a conspiracy.
 
Conspiracy theories are one reason people with common sense stay away from "political" discussions. Who wants to listen to someone rant and rave? (Besides me, I mean.)
 
Actually, conspiracy theories are the only theories the pot-addled brains around here can manage.
 
It's been over a day now since this happened. Do any of the candidates, north or south, appear to have an understanding of what's going on in, you know, the general vicinity of where we have about 200,000 troops?

Does Smirk and Sneer?

Is it all part of the plot against Israel?
 
Bhutto Herself Had Links to Islamic Militants

by Wayne Madsen

On August 15, 2007, WMR reported that the late Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto's Pakistan People's Party (PPP) had links to the anti-Musharraf tribal movements and Islamists in Pakistan's rugged mountainous regions. The corporate media is attempting to spin the story that Bhutto was killed by Islamist militants.

The following is what WMR reported on August 15, 2007:


WMR has learned that the CIA is also working with pro-Al Qaeda and Taliban insurgents in Pakistan. Currently, Assistant Secretary of State for South Asia Richard Boucher is visiting Pakistan to repair frayed relations with Pakistani dictator Pervez Musharraf, however, U.S. intelligence is also working with tribal opponents of Musharraf to help destabilize his regime.

Boucher is likely in Pakistan to help bring about the return of former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto as Prime Minister in a civilian administration where Musharraf would retain the presidency. Bhutto, who remains in exile, and Musharraf recently met in Abu Dhabi to hammer out a power-sharing agreement.

Bhutto claims she wants to return to Pakistan, as she said, to save her country from "a militant takeover, (and) God forbid, disintegration."

However, Bhutto's own political party is affiliated with the very same Islamic militants in the tribal areas from whom she claims she wants to save her country.

The Bush administration's long-term plan is to use the tribal militants to destabilize Musharraf to the point that a Indian-American-Australian team, that could also possibly include covert Israeli commandos, can enter Pakistan's deep underground laboratories to extract certain key nuclear technologies. The agreement of the Bush administration to provide India with billions in "peaceful" nuclear technology was used to lure India into the covert program to de-nuclearize Pakistan.

Bottom line: Bhutto was the bait to help bring about the nuclear weapons extraction from Pakistan. In his book, "Surrender is Not an Option," former unconfirmed US ambassador to the UN John Bolton wrote, "the principal American strategic interest" is the security of Pakistan's nuclear weapons.



http://www.waynemadsenreport.com

For more, visit Wayne Madsen Report, which its publisher, Wayne Madsen, keeps refreshed with more news than any one reporter has a right to.
 
OK, I give up.

1 What or who is WMR?
2 Can you think through ANY issue without invoking a conspiracy theory?
 
The Pakistan government said Bhutto died when the bomb blast caused her head to impact against the sun roof latch with enough force to fracture her skull. Bhutto's aid prepared her body for the funeral and claims to have seen the entry and exit wounds caused by a bullet. Pakistan ISI claims to have intercepted a phone call from a tribal leader who is part of the Al Qaeda network congratulating the brave young assassins. Looks like a cover up and conspiracy. While the gullible will, no doubt, wear a fashionable sneer and spit conspiracy theory, it appears that Musharraf has lost control of the official story. Any other news released by the Pakistan Government concerning the assassination should be viewed with skepticism. The intercepted terrorist phone call could be easily staged.

OK. Fire away, conspiracy theory debunker.
 
Baitulla Meshud, supposed leader of Al Qaeda in Pakistan, is blamed by the Musharraf government for planning and directing the assassination of Benazir Bhutto. CNN is giving support by repeating the claim that Meshud runs a string of terror training camps. CNN is also showing the video that was taken from the driver's side of Bhutto's SUV that we have all seen, but, now with a trained eye expert pointing to what looks like a video cell phone being held up in the air above the crowd that he claims to be the assassin's hand gun. Check it out for yourself if you get a chance. Under what circumstance would the US backed Musharraf Government, with full knowledge of these Meshud terror camps, knowledge shared by the ISI and the CIA, allow Meshud to operate and plan and make threats on Bhutto's life?
 
"1. What or who is WMR?"
http://www.waynemadsenreport.com

"2. Can you think through ANY issue without invoking a conspiracy theory?"

Depends.Quite a few other reports are backing this one.
 
And I'm curious to know what conspiracy theories I believe in.
 
Proof that we are tolerant; We put up with you don't we?

Earnie,
You are sadly mistaken if you really suppose that I care whether you, or this abstract 'we' that you presume to represent, puts up with me, or tolerates me, or not. I do hope that you find the means to qualify your vagaries. l
 
Bhutto returned to Pakistan as an American puppet. Mushareff was badgered into allowing her back into the country and heavily influenced to step down as military commander & allow elections. The Pakistani nationalists saw Bhutto as the American stooge she was and took her out as they have tried to do with Musharef numerous times and probably will continue to do so. The representatives of foreign invaders/occupiers/financers etc., all run the risk that Bhutto did. Tragic but predictable.
 
Why can't these little brown people learn to play the game by our rules?
Our rules being: We win, every time!

Not fair. Must use steroids to compensate.
 
Try not to be so obviously gleeful at the Bhutto murder. "The Pakistani nationalists" include Osama & co. in your book. The truth is you will endorse the most repulsive characters on earth as long as they are opposed to America.
 
And some people will support an arrogant American foreign policy as long as it carries the official FNC stamp of approval. You just can't have enough of those made in China magnetic "Support our President" ribbons on your car to say I'm proud to be a free American patriot to distinguish yourself from those cut and run lefty liberal progs who will side with anyone, no matter how low and disgusting as long as they hate America first. God bless you.
 
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