Saturday, July 19, 2008

 

More Fed raids may be on the way

Or so reports Tom Sebourn.

There was Fed activity reported this week. Federal vehicles were reported in Whitethorn where papers were served - presumably forfeiture actions. On Thursday a caravan went to Harris, with conflicting accounts as to what happened there.

I've now heard from several sources that on the day of the original raid a young woman who had been sleeping was forced to stand naked for an extended period of time while the agents tore through her home. I don't know the details but it sounds like grounds for a civil rights action on the face of it.

Comments:
You mean Tom.

If the story about the woman is true, she needs to get in touch with a lawyer asap. Perhaps Dennis Cunningham.
 
Thanks, typo corrected.

And yes, I hope she's speaking to somebody.
 
There was an extensive coverage on last night's KMUD news about what came down in Island Mountain, actually Mendo County. They had a long interview with the sheriff or some such person. I think it was 800 lbs of pot seized, money, guns, heroine and they arrested 12 people. Check the KMUD archives.
 
A heroine is an admirable woman.
Heroin is a narcotic.

Just in case anyone was confused about that.
 
We are also getting reports of extensive vandalism to private property during the Federal Raids including destruction of trees, burning holes in bedding with cigarettes, and smashing things while "searching."
 
"I don't know the details"

Why did you post an unsubstantiated rumor? Because it disfavors the FBI? That's what Craigslist is for.
 
Why did you post an unsubstantiated rumor?

Because as much as I've said has been substantiated with several reliable sources, and I think it's important for people to know.
 
That young woman is my sister-in-law. She was forced to sit naked for two hours with her nine month old baby in her arms.
 
I also know the story of the young woman and it did not happen at Buddaville but at a connected residence elsewhere. It certainly happened.
 
Not to be heartless, but You know, one of the bad things about choosing to take the risk, and to go ahead and become a pot grower/seller has always been the risk that you will get caught, and you will get busted like this, and that you will endure prosecution and you will go to prison. Like the law or not, that's the reality and everyone knows it.

It's fine to take the risk if it is just you, but when you have a wife, and, more importantly, you have kids, you are risking a whole lot more than just yourself.

You are risking your kid's lives, not in the physical sense, but in the long term sense - growing up without a Dad, being subjected to things like this... going through this kind of trauma, and the trauma of a trial and the trauma of seeing the most important person in the world to them taken away.

It's something to consider and not take lightly. But people do.

I don't know if the woman you mention is in that category, but some of the people who have been busted lately quite definitely are. I'm most amazed that anyone is surprised. Who should you be mad at?
 
Rose's assessment of risk/reward realization is nothing new here in SoHum.
Went through that same angst with an earlier generation during the dawning of the helicopter age in the mid 80's here; or so I thought. Hey! That would make them the parents of the generation generally being busted now.

You'd think the family folklore would have been passed on along with the family recipe.
 
You know, Rose, some of the people who were raided were law-abiding, town-residing relatives of non-pot-growing people who had bought land through the corporation.
So then I guess the lesson would be to disown your adult children who make bad business decisions or are poor judges of character, regardless of whether said adult children have broken any laws.
Because really, who needs civil liberties when only the guilty and the thought-to-be-guilty and the associates of the thought-to-be-guilty and the relatives of the associates of the thought-to-be-guilty have anything to fear?
And people dis Michelle Obama for admitting she hasn't always felt proud of her country!
We are on the fast-track to facism.
 
Rose, most of the homes raided actually had no growing. What that means as to the potential guilt of any of the inhabitants remains to be seen.

However, even if this woman was guilty of murder, there is no excuse for that kind of humiliation. They could have searched her dresser immediately and allowed her some clothes. I haven't heard their side of it of course, but I'm trying to imagine a scenario where that would have been justified and I just can't come up with one.
 
I agree, Eric. Simple human decency should apply.
 
To say the least.
 
a few years ago, when that member of the manila community services district was busted for a co-op pot grow that he was present at in sohum, the feds pulled a similar stunt with his wife.

after the state charges were dropped (because there were legit 215s) the feds then showed up with a small army at the guys place in manila. kicked in the door, dragged him out of bed, made the wife huddle naked in the corner for quite some time while they ransacked the house, finding zilch.

then the feds hauled him all the way down to san francisco where he again bailed out of custody. i think he eventually was convicted (not allowed to raise medical defense in federal court), but in the end i think he didn't get much jail time, if any. does anyone else remember this case, and if so, do you remember what the final sentence actually was?

in some ways the police raid itself was the greatest punishment, certainly to his wife, who was not charged with anything. and maybe that's the point - they may not be able to make any real charges stick or even jail you for very long if they can make something stick, but if they've already punished you by humiliating and abusing your spouse, family, kids, neighbors, and associates, i guess our loving overlords from d.c. feel like they've already accomplished something to justify their cushy government jobs.

i suppose it's just another form of extrajudicial collective punishment by authority figures who are frustrated that guilty people are "getting away with something" because the not-guilty around them aren't turning them in.

hmmm, it seems like we see more of this all the time. i wonder where those federal agents could have got the idea that collective punishment is o.k.?
 
Yes. Canceling a dance is the moral equivalent of assaulting you and sexually humiliating your wife. I see the comparison.
 
don't be silly, no one claimed a moral equivalence, i just suggested that the same principle may be at work.

nice try, though. and at least the straw man you created lies vanquished on the ground. i guess that's something.
 
Did the Feds cancel the prom? I didn't know that!
 
no, the feds just wanted to check out the prom queen naked for a couple of hours.

anyway, it was 9:30 who brought up the prom. i just asked the question of where people get the idea that collective punishment is o.k. in some cases. but i think it's good that folks can make the connection, even if it's only to try to deny that there is any.
 
Since when do pot growers care about anyone's "rights" but their own? We're not really talking about civil rights; we're talking about loopholes for criminals.
 
Well, if the feds are running a school with minors then what you refer to as "collective punishment" may be appropriate in some instances.

But I'm not sure how the situation with this woman amounts to "collective punishment." It was fairly singular actually.
 
As a genuine 215 patient I experience a different sort of collective punishment. First,I cant travel out of state let alone out of the coutry without risking arrest (gee no vacations for me). In reality I am pretty much trapped here on the "reservation". Second, the growers disdain me, wont buy from me or sell to me, and generally treat anyone without a 10lb order as a jerk (that means, no land, no house, and a barely working car). Third, I undergo way more scrutiny because of my known desire to accomplish legalization and perhaps earn my own freedom to participate in society.

All these gold diggers at least get houses and land and cars and a career. The real patients get left on the battlefield, and then every now and again a grower is affected and then we hear about "rights". These are people who collect patients "cards" literally like baseball cards and give nothing back.What about the right to *live* when you have an incurable intractable pain condition? Imagine if you could not live without the herb.

I have done jail time, I have been shunned by my family, I have had a promising career cut short,and I have seen dozen patients close to me die over this. Thats what I consider collective punishment, law enforcement and an entire community taking advantage of and preying on sick people and their dire need for this unique medicine.

Support legalization or simply join those who oppress me cruelly.
 
My heart goes out to 6:40. This is the side of the pot issue that no one wants to talk about. How many of these 215 card carriers are really medicinal pot patients and how many are using it for their own gain.? It's immoral and unethical. I know people who have several 215's, one for each of their family members, even teenagers who are fully healthy and capable. Who are these unethical docs who'll give a 215 to someone who isn't sick and then be willing to hide the evidence? 215 is a sham in so many cases and I can't say I am too surprised that the Feds are looking at it.
 
7:50 said

some of the people who were raided were law-abiding, town-residing relatives of non-pot-growing people who had bought land through the corporation.

I think this is a bit naive.
 
8:50 but they were law abiding people.
 
The Manila person was Tim Dellas who was a board member for the Manila Community Services District. He got 10 years which is quite a lot compared to what gets published in the Sunday newspaper here - 3 months probation. When tried in Federal courts 215 doesn't count.

The reports in the paper about him said he had records of sales - reportedly over $1 million. Doesn't quite seem like 215 sales.
 
eric,

the point i was making about "collective punishment" was that on the one hand we're teaching high school seniors that collective punishment against them is o.k. in order to "teach 'em all a lesson," and then a month later when they've graduated (assuming we don't take away their graduation in order to punish other individuals in their class) we then expect them to somehow set that mentality aside and not resort to collective punishment in their adult lives.

and if you can't see how the fbi and dea subjecting family members, friends, or associates of suspects to humiliating and abusive treatment is a form of collective punishment, well, i guess you'll have to go with the "a few bad apples" theory of police abuse in these raids.

but as demonstrated by the manila raid a few years ago, the practice of forcing female non-suspects to remain naked during searches is certainly not a "singular" event. (and i'm willing to bet that the same thing has happened to many others, who kept silent about the abusive treatment due to concerns about additional retaliation against them and their family members).

and whatever the facts of mr. dellas's case, there is no excuse for how they treated his wife (unless you believe in extrajudicial collective punishment to "send a message.")
 
the point i was making about "collective punishment" was that on the one hand we're teaching high school seniors that collective punishment against them is o.k. in order to "teach 'em all a lesson," and then a month later when they've graduated (assuming we don't take away their graduation in order to punish other individuals in their class) we then expect them to somehow set that mentality aside and not resort to collective punishment in their adult lives.

And that expectation is justified because the kids have brains.
 
People you are debating the capacity of human beings to deal with nuance. We have that capacity but someone this ship has been launched that everything is all or nothing. Black or white. Your kids are smarter than you give them credit for and they probably understand nuance better than most adults I'd guess. After all they deal with rules and laws from society, the authorities, and their parents and family every day with little recourse.

They perform to your expectations. You take away nuance from their life and you may as well leave those training wheels on their bicycles for the duration of their lives.

All they really care about is that they don't look bad to their friends and they don't have to be accountable. Those are the things they take forward into adulthood if you don't allow them to develop nuances for the various situations. Group punishment, social stigma, is what keeps the authorities from becoming even more oppressive with their laws. It also delivers the concept that we are all a part of governing our society and in the real world social pressure isn't just dictated by your net worth. It is democratic and community based.

Is it always appropriate, of course it isn't. But a society without it is just a bunch of disconnected blobs pursuing maximum wealth in my opinion.
 
4:18, you've made excellent points, I agree with everything you've written.

But the people proudly declare themselves "outlaws", to protect their monetary grow interests don't want to be be responsible to a community. They care only about the self interests of their personal clique. They destroy real community in favor of a feudalistic society of fiefdoms and ephemeral alliances of convenience. Their children learn that lying and hiding what you do is normal life.

IMHO they're exactly of the same mentality as the Neocons and the faith based free market social Darwinists. None of them give a hoot about how their lifestyle harms other people o harm or the environment. What they do respect is power and force.
 
"But the people proudly declare themselves "outlaws", to protect their monetary grow interests don't want to be be responsible to a community."

IMHO Again not every grower comes from the same stalk. The big fish have taken over a little pond and use the little fish mercilessly as cover and to augment their revenues. Did the little fish play into their hands, sure they did. But I don't think they intended that to happen and for the most part I see them as really good people, friends and neighbors caught up in a bad situation they will have to find a way out of. To me that way out is legalization to others it is punishment I guess.
 
"not a native" has a serious case of sour grapes, or maybe i should say "sour apples." she is just bitter about that parcel she wanted to get out at the tooby ranch for an orchard, but couldn't afford. she wrote sbout this on heraldo's blog. well, she got all resentful of the growers, because it's "their fault" for pushing up the land prices.

unable to pursue her own rural dream for lack of funds, she now says it's irresponsible for anyone to live in our rural areas, and insists that everyone who does is a grower and part of an "outlaw culture." remind you of anyone else (with the initials s.l.)?

so much for "not a native" and her warped point of view.
 
Lots of this talk makes me think of cb/pb/td and their ways of treating the community,and their disdain for laws, and total lack of morals or ethics.
 
“However, even if this woman was guilty of murder, there is no excuse for that kind of humiliation. “

Now that’s illuminating. I guess it depends who you are when it comes to what conduct you will tolerate.

There is a trial underway right now for the former Blue Lake chief of police. Now I have absolutely nothing to say as to his guilt or innocence. What I do have to comment about is how the alleged victim was treated. Because our illustrious DA was so rabid to get his grips on the guy that the DA’s wife was opposing in a child custody suit, he allowed the victim in that matter to be brought in against her will, held hostage for 7 hours, and threatened with arrest unless she played ball with the prosecution. Then after she was released and changed her mind about being coerced, the DA then made public confidential reports, photographs of her and all of her confidential information (including her name, address and phone number.)

Well folks, if the unsourced allegation by Eric offends you about a potential person who broke the law, then the information about Mrs. Gunderson should really piss you off.
 
6:04, Your point is well taken.
The little fish were complicit with outlaws and now are in danger of being eaten up. They're in a bad situation. Its very difficult to look for protection from the authorities when you're a potential target of enforcement. I sympathize with them, I hope they find a way to get out of the box.

I don't engage in blog wars but the very unidentifable "anonymous 7:20" who claims to know so much about me, is wrong. But what's laughable is that the person actually believes they know something about me, "for a fact".

Says a lot about a poster that they choose to try to point to motivations rather than address opinions in the thread. Guess I must have really hit a nerve and thats all they can come up with. It just illustrates my arguments that the "outlaw" grower mentality squelches open discussions and fair play, and weakens a community's ability to solve problems.
 
There is a trial underway right now for the former Blue Lake chief of police. Now I have absolutely nothing to say as to his guilt or innocence. What I do have to comment about is how the alleged victim was treated. Because our illustrious DA was so rabid to get his grips on the guy that the DA’s wife was opposing in a child custody suit, he allowed the victim in that matter to be brought in against her will, held hostage for 7 hours, and threatened with arrest unless she played ball with the prosecution. Then after she was released and changed her mind about being coerced, the DA then made public confidential reports, photographs of her and all of her confidential information (including her name, address and phone number.)

Was she held nude at gunpoint for 2 hours?
 
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